Mimi wrote:First of all, I think this moving is amazing.
I follow the idea of the equation, how humanity has been saved, how time is a loop and therefore 'they' are 'us' and the person that found the link to that Michelangelo's painting - very well found! Besides that I think the representations of this extremely theoretic scientific ideas was hell of challenge and I can hardly imagine anyone would be disappointed - but then I'm not a scientist.
However, I personally keep on struggling with the character of Dr. Mann.
He is the representation of humanity basically - being egoncentric in a way, or evil, as was mentioned before. He spent years on a planet, all by himself, thinking he would be lost. Therefore he faked the data about the planet so they would pick him up, right? So first motivation seems to be to save his own ass instead of saving humanity because then he could have selflessly transmitted the actual data so no time would be wasted. However, when he tries to kill everybody to take over the mission, he keeps on saying he wants to 'save humanity'. Following that motivation, he understands that Cooper wants to go back home and he feels like all has been done for nothing. This feeling is followed by the revelation of Dr. Brand: Plan A could never work therefore all people on earth now are lost. However, the other two are surprised and don't know what Murph is really talking about - untill Mann confirms Plan A was never an option. SO: he's not trying to convince anyone that they could in the end go back with Plan A, which seems like a more logical motivation at that point if he wants the mission to keep on going. He decides to spit out the whole truth so HE can go save the worl - did he just want to be a hero? To me it's a big contradiction...
I think the point of view about the beginning actually being the ending of the movie very interesting - I'll have to go see the movie again one of these days
There is no contradiction.
Mann's character is an idealized oversimplification of the selfishness that comes from our survival instincts. He's not "evil", although Cooper and Brand's speech that the only "evil" in space is what we bring with us indicates we're probably supposed to think he (Mann) is, he's human. He still, of course, wants to save his species. Survival. But his desire for saving his species has becomes confused with his desire to save himself, and he's lost his scientific objectivity.
Mann's character is an idealized oversimplification of the selfishness that comes from our survival instincts. He's not "evil", although Cooper and Brand's speech that the only "evil" in space is what we bring with us indicates we're probably supposed to think he (Mann) is, he's human. He still, of course, wants to save his species. Survival. But his desire for saving his species has becomes confused with his desire to save himself, and he's lost his scientific objectivity.
Okay, I like the explanation of confusion - because if it really was about the species he wouldn't have faked the data, and if it really was about himself, he wouldn't have wanted to go on with the mission. Actually, him being aware of the statement of Dr. Brand would mean his only motivation should be saving humanity. So now there was a little bit of both.
UnknownVariation wrote:I asked this earlier, but I don't know if anyone saw it:
When Coop first entered the black hole, what were the cloud of white, glasslike specks and fireballs flying at him supposed to be? Also, if the space station is already heading into the wormhole to colonize the habitable planet, why can't Coop just wait to find Brand? What's the rush?
Nothing can escape from a black hole, not even light. So, the glasslike specks flying at him are the different space objects (asteroids, interstellar dust, comets etc) that got sucked into the black hole.
Regarding your second question, I don't remember anybody saying that the space colony is heading into the wormhole. But, I might be wrong.
Here's my reasoning. They still don't know if that third planet is habitable. They don't even know if Brand is alive. Cooper is leaving in the end not only to find Brand but also to see if the planet is habitable.
Although it's implied that they've been living in the space colony for many years, I think we have to assume that this is a temporary solution. They still have to find a habitable planet.
Given the focus on the father-daughter relationship, does anybody else think that there was no real need for the son's character in the movie?
The only scene I can think of that would've been affected was the emotional scene when Coop comes back from the water planet and starts going through the video messages from his son. But, I think they could've accomplished that in a different way by having his father in that video message.
Mimi wrote:First of all, I think this moving is amazing.
I follow the idea of the equation, how humanity has been saved, how time is a loop and therefore 'they' are 'us' and the person that found the link to that Michelangelo's painting - very well found! Besides that I think the representations of this extremely theoretic scientific ideas was hell of challenge and I can hardly imagine anyone would be disappointed - but then I'm not a scientist.
However, I personally keep on struggling with the character of Dr. Mann.
He is the representation of humanity basically - being egoncentric in a way, or evil, as was mentioned before. He spent years on a planet, all by himself, thinking he would be lost. Therefore he faked the data about the planet so they would pick him up, right? So first motivation seems to be to save his own ass instead of saving humanity because then he could have selflessly transmitted the actual data so no time would be wasted. However, when he tries to kill everybody to take over the mission, he keeps on saying he wants to 'save humanity'. Following that motivation, he understands that Cooper wants to go back home and he feels like all has been done for nothing. This feeling is followed by the revelation of Dr. Brand: Plan A could never work therefore all people on earth now are lost. However, the other two are surprised and don't know what Murph is really talking about - untill Mann confirms Plan A was never an option. SO: he's not trying to convince anyone that they could in the end go back with Plan A, which seems like a more logical motivation at that point if he wants the mission to keep on going. He decides to spit out the whole truth so HE can go save the worl - did he just want to be a hero? To me it's a big contradiction...
I think the point of view about the beginning actually being the ending of the movie very interesting - I'll have to go see the movie again one of these days
Dr. Mann wanted to save his own a** , as he would've died marooned and alone, while also attempting to complete the mission; presumably by taking over the endurance and starting a colony on Edmond's planet.
UnknownVariation wrote:I asked this earlier, but I don't know if anyone saw it:
When Coop first entered the black hole, what were the cloud of white, glasslike specks and fireballs flying at him supposed to be? Also, if the space station is already heading into the wormhole to colonize the habitable planet, why can't Coop just wait to find Brand? What's the rush?
These might be tiny pieces detaching from Tars who went into the black hole moments earlier.
As far as I know the space station isn't heading for the wormhole, it is simply orbiting Saturn. I guess other stations are orbiting other planets (they do mention there are other space stations, the one orbiting Saturn was the closest to where Cooper was found)
smokey81286 wrote:
This may be the biggest reach in the movie, I'm guessing, but is there any truth to the idea that being able to glean information from inside a black hole would further our understanding of gravity?
Absolutely. We know about quantum effects that rule the very small scales, and about gravity that rule the large scales, but we do not know how the intense gravity present on tiny scales inside black holes would behave in the presence of quantum effects. Usually gravity is negligible on tiny scales and quantum effects are negligible on large scales, but inside black holes both cannot be neglected and we do not know how the two would behave together. So knowing what goes on inside black holes would better our understanding of gravity. Now as to whether this would allow us to manipulate gravity, that's another story.
The Wormhole is created by the future humanity where Dr Brand solves the equation, there is no plan A or B, there is just 1 plan to get as many off this planet as we can. they go into space and many futures pass and the future generations realise, they create a wormhole to the new area of planets where humans should live for a better future, but to get both humanities to surivive, the one on the ship and the one on earth. first man has to populate the planet which would create the black hole and fifth dimension to then send the message back to coop because by creating the wormhole the future earth see the anomoly that Dr Brand doesnt believe in plan A he only believes in Plan B whereas for their OWN future, plan A is also needed for their OWN survival..
The Wormhole is created by the future humanity where Dr Brand solves the equation, there is no plan A or B, there is just 1 plan to get as many off this planet as we can. they go into space and many futures pass and the future generations realise, they create a wormhole to the new area of planets where humans should live for a better future, but to get both humanities to surivive, the one on the ship and the one on earth. first man has to populate the planet which would create the black hole and fifth dimension to then send the message back to coop because by creating the wormhole the future earth see the anomoly that Dr Brand doesnt believe in plan A he only believes in Plan B whereas for their OWN future, plan A is also needed for their OWN survival..
I'm not sure I got all you were saying but you just gave me an idea:
What if in the original timeline Cooper goes into the black hole and dies there. Murph never receives any message. They do not solve gravity. Plan A fails. Everyone on Earth dies. Brand (Anne Hathaway) is the last member of mankind still alive. On Edmunds' planet she grows the fertilized eggs they had brought with them on the Endurance. She succeeds with plan B. The new humans live on that planet. Eventually they become more technologically advanced than we were back on Earth, and at some point in the future they attain such a deep understanding of the universe that they evolve to live in a higher dimension, the bulk. There they perceive love physically, love has a tangible existence in this higher dimension. They perceive the love that linked humans back on Earth a long, long time ago. And then out of love they devise a way to allow these humans to keep living too, some of whom were their ancestors, their great-great-...-great-grand-parents. They perceive the strong love that linked Cooper and his daughter. They realize they can save the humans who lived on Earth by enabling Cooper to communicate with his daughter from inside that black hole, through the link that bound them together. Once Cooper succeeds they send him back near Saturn through a wormhole, to allow him to see his daughter one last time. Brand allowed the future humans to live, Cooper allowed the humans back on Earth to live. In the end Cooper leaves to reunite with Brand, in a sense reuniting humanity together: the future humans who couldn't have lived without Brand, and Earth's humans who couldn't have lived without Cooper. It was love that had brought Brand to Edmunds' planet and allowed future humans to live, and it was love that allowed Cooper to save Earth's humans.
The Wormhole is created by the future humanity where Dr Brand solves the equation, there is no plan A or B, there is just 1 plan to get as many off this planet as we can. they go into space and many futures pass and the future generations realise, they create a wormhole to the new area of planets where humans should live for a better future, but to get both humanities to surivive, the one on the ship and the one on earth. first man has to populate the planet which would create the black hole and fifth dimension to then send the message back to coop because by creating the wormhole the future earth see the anomoly that Dr Brand doesnt believe in plan A he only believes in Plan B whereas for their OWN future, plan A is also needed for their OWN survival..
I'm not sure I got all you were saying but you just gave me an idea:
What if in the original timeline Cooper goes into the black hole and dies there. Murph never receives any message. They do not solve gravity. Plan A fails. Everyone on Earth dies. Brand (Anne Hathaway) is the last member of mankind still alive. On Edmunds' planet she grows the fertilized eggs they had brought with them on the Endurance. She succeeds with plan B. The new humans live on that planet. Eventually they become more technologically advanced than we were back on Earth, and at some point in the future they attain such a deep understanding of the universe that they evolve to live in a higher dimension, the bulk. There they perceive love physically, love has a tangible existence in this higher dimension. They perceive the love that linked humans back on Earth a long, long time ago. And then out of love they devise a way to allow these humans to keep living too, some of whom were their ancestors, their great-great-...-great-grand-parents. They perceive the strong love that linked Cooper and his daughter. They realize they can save the humans who lived on Earth by enabling Cooper to communicate with his daughter from inside that black hole, through the link that bound them together. Once Cooper succeeds they send him back near Saturn through a wormhole, to allow him to see his daughter one last time. Brand allowed the future humans to live, Cooper allowed the humans back on Earth to live. In the end Cooper leaves to reunite with Brand, in a sense reuniting humanity together: the future humans who couldn't have lived without Brand, and Earth's humans who couldn't have lived without Cooper. It was love that had brought Brand to Edmunds' planet and allowed future humans to live, and it was love that allowed Cooper to save Earth's humans.
I love that theory.
Now my question is:
What is the significance of the time NASA has known about the wormholes existence? I think Michael Caine tells Cooper they've known about it something like 43 years? It can't be just some random number they picked. How old is Cooper? Is he the same age as the amount of time they've known about the wormhole? In which case that would drive home your theory since future humans put it there at Coopers birth. It was meant for him...we likely can find other evidence of your theory if we look closely, Nolan always leaves crumbs.
