I believe they were great villains following Joker and Two-Face. There's no one else in the gallery that could have provided a story of this scale, which was instrumental in creating a film that is on par with, if not better than, The Dark Knight. Here are my thoughts on Bane and Talia:

Joker demonstrated how anyone could be made degenerate by one bad day. Bane, on the other hand, didn't arrive in Gotham with such broadly reaching messages.

Bane's was more personal: He and Bruce were both rescued from prison by Ra's. Ra's trained both in the League. Ra's distaste for Bane--a monster that emerged from the hellhole where his wife was raped/killed--led him to excommunicate Bane. In contrast to Bane, Ra's wanted Bruce to be at his side when he attacked Gotham. Bruce rejected the opportunity and place in the League Ra's offered him.

Bane was never even given that. Yet, despite the honor offered by Ra's, Bruce rejected the offer. This is where Bane's motive comes in. In leading his mercenaries to Gotham, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Bruce. This happened in the sewer fight where he basically took Bruce apart at his leisure. Furthermore, Bane was the first to become the symbol that Bruce wished to be: Bane inspired the people to rise up against corruption.

Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

Through completing Ra's Al Ghul's mission, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Ra's. Ra's tried using the economy to bring Gotham to its knees. He tried using the Fear Gas to cause the citizens to tear their city apart. He failed on both counts, thanks to Batman. Bane was also thwarted by Batman in the end; however he enjoyed a greater measure of success than Ra's. He took in the orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage and the lower class. He galvanized the people to strike back against the rich. Under Bane, the Gothamites were in full possession of their mental faculties when they turned on each other.

Talia wanted to finish Ra's work as a way of honoring him; moving on past his death. Revenge on Bruce was, as she said, a reward. What's interesting is that the relationship between Bruce and Miranda allowed Talia to become the knife to the heart in a sort of throwback to Ra's line in BB about walking up behind someone and stabbing them in the heart. I loved the turn, and the fact that Miranda's characterization isn't lost in the reveal makes Talia a much strong character, even when you know what's coming.

Talia's motive is driven by the old saying "you don't know what you got till its gone." Its perfectly reasonable for someone to suddenly realize that they had feelings for an estranged relative, and be angry or upset that they can't reconcile with said relative.

My interpretation is based chiefly on the dialogue between Blake and the orphan in the beginning about work in the sewers, Bane's dialogue during the sewer fight, the backstory as given by Talia and Talia's line to Bruce: "Innocent (innocence?) is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

Avatar Korra wrote:

TehBatGetsBraked wrote:Motivations are perfectly logical. Not a big stretch

Okay, so Talia's motivation is to avenge her father, even though she didn't really like him for excommunicating Bane? She was going to kill an innocent city devoid of organized crime, because her father did?

You have to remember that Talia's not entirely sane, she never was because of the effects of the Pit. And once she got out of the Pit it was very easy for Ra's to mold her view to his liking. Not that hard. Plsu remember when Bruce says "You don't realize how much you miss [the people he cares about] until they're gone." It's a recurring idea.

Avatar Korra wrote:Bane is willing to kill himself, Talia, and the rest of the League of Shadows in some suicidal genocide, just to torture one man?

The rest of the League doesn't care?

...and deliver his twisted ideology of justice. They're all radicals, and like most terrorist groups believe what they're fighting for. "The ends justify the means." And Talia was Bane's only emotional connection, without her he's just a brute; and albiet intelligent one.

Jerry Cornelius wrote:I believe they were great villains following Joker and Two-Face. There's no one else in the gallery that could have provided a story of this scale, which was instrumental in creating a film that is on par with, if not better than, The Dark Knight. Here are my thoughts on Bane and Talia:

Joker demonstrated how anyone could be made degenerate by one bad day. Bane, on the other hand, didn't arrive in Gotham with such broadly reaching messages.

Bane's was more personal: He and Bruce were both rescued from prison by Ra's. Ra's trained both in the League. Ra's distaste for Bane--a monster that emerged from the hellhole where his wife was raped/killed--led him to excommunicate Bane. In contrast to Bane, Ra's wanted Bruce to be at his side when he attacked Gotham. Bruce rejected the opportunity and place in the League Ra's offered him.

Bane was never even given that. Yet, despite the honor offered by Ra's, Bruce rejected the offer. This is where Bane's motive comes in. In leading his mercenaries to Gotham, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Bruce. This happened in the sewer fight where he basically took Bruce apart at his leisure. Furthermore, Bane was the first to become the symbol that Bruce wished to be: Bane inspired the people to rise up against corruption.

Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

Through completing Ra's Al Ghul's mission, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Ra's. Ra's tried using the economy to bring Gotham to its knees. He tried using the Fear Gas to cause the citizens to tear their city apart. He failed on both counts, thanks to Batman. Bane was also thwarted by Batman in the end; however he enjoyed a greater measure of success than Ra's. He took in the orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage and the lower class. He galvanized the people to strike back against the rich. Under Bane, the Gothamites were in full possession of their mental faculties when they turned on each other.

Talia wanted to finish Ra's work as a way of honoring him; moving on past his death. Revenge on Bruce was, as she said, a reward. What's interesting is that the relationship between Bruce and Miranda allowed Talia to become the knife to the heart in a sort of throwback to Ra's line in BB about walking up behind someone and stabbing them in the heart. I loved the turn, and the fact that Miranda's characterization isn't lost in the reveal makes Talia a much strong character, even when you know what's coming.

Talia's motive is driven by the old saying "you don't know what you got till its gone." Its perfectly reasonable for someone to suddenly realize that they had feelings for an estranged relative, and be angry or upset that they can't reconcile with said relative.

My interpretation is based chiefly on the dialogue between Blake and the orphan in the beginning about work in the sewers, Bane's dialogue during the sewer fight, the backstory as given by Talia and Talia's line to Bruce: "Innocent (innocence?) is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

So very well said, Jerry! Welcome to the board. You captured a lot of the emotions that drove Bane. People tend to focus on his relationship with Talia, but really his relationship (or lack thereof) with Ra's is really at the base of what drives him. And if someone needs photographic proof of this, all you have to do is check out this .gif, a moment right after Batman mocks him with, "You were excommunicated by a gang of psychopaths."



The distant look in Bane's eyes shows several emotions that are, to me, all related to the excommunicate (and not the bit about psychopaths ): anger, pain, rejection, loss. After the pit Bane no doubt thought he had found a purpose, a home, and a family with Ra's and Talia only to have Ra's reject him, even after Bane was responsible for saving Ra's child. Cold, man. Cold. And, as Talia pointed out, Ra's revulsion toward Bane didn't have as much to do with Bane being a "monster" but with the fact that looking at "the monster" reminded Ra's of what his own poor judgment (falling in love with Melisande--the warlord's daughter) caused his wife, his child, and ultimately another person--Bane himself.

The problem with Talia was that she had no character development aside from flashbacks by the time of her reveal. As such, when she replaced Bane as the main villain and started to escort the convoy, she really was nothing more than a woman in a truck. She was revealed WAY too far into the final act, and as such, the final chase sequence lost valuable dramatic tension because she wasn't previously established as dangerous and formidable (and also because Bane was tossed aside so quickly).

Also, Nolan/Goyer chose not to write her as the master martial artist she is usually depicted as, which I guess was OK in terms of the story they wanted to tell. But I still think it would have been nice to see a reference or acknowledgement of her fighting ability. The best chance for something like this would be Foley's death, like maybe if she threw a dagger at him or something, rather than him getting shot off-screen which looked really weird because they edited out the Tumbler hitting him.

Lastly, Miranda Tate was underdeveloped, as was her "relationship" with Bruce, which ended up lessening the impact of her betrayal. They needed one or two more scenes together (with a little bit of flirting or something to acknowledge some sort of attraction) to make their hookup more believable.

Baniac wrote:

Jerry Cornelius wrote:I believe they were great villains following Joker and Two-Face. There's no one else in the gallery that could have provided a story of this scale, which was instrumental in creating a film that is on par with, if not better than, The Dark Knight. Here are my thoughts on Bane and Talia:

Joker demonstrated how anyone could be made degenerate by one bad day. Bane, on the other hand, didn't arrive in Gotham with such broadly reaching messages.

Bane's was more personal: He and Bruce were both rescued from prison by Ra's. Ra's trained both in the League. Ra's distaste for Bane--a monster that emerged from the hellhole where his wife was raped/killed--led him to excommunicate Bane. In contrast to Bane, Ra's wanted Bruce to be at his side when he attacked Gotham. Bruce rejected the opportunity and place in the League Ra's offered him.

Bane was never even given that. Yet, despite the honor offered by Ra's, Bruce rejected the offer. This is where Bane's motive comes in. In leading his mercenaries to Gotham, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Bruce. This happened in the sewer fight where he basically took Bruce apart at his leisure. Furthermore, Bane was the first to become the symbol that Bruce wished to be: Bane inspired the people to rise up against corruption.

Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

Through completing Ra's Al Ghul's mission, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Ra's. Ra's tried using the economy to bring Gotham to its knees. He tried using the Fear Gas to cause the citizens to tear their city apart. He failed on both counts, thanks to Batman. Bane was also thwarted by Batman in the end; however he enjoyed a greater measure of success than Ra's. He took in the orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage and the lower class. He galvanized the people to strike back against the rich. Under Bane, the Gothamites were in full possession of their mental faculties when they turned on each other.

Talia wanted to finish Ra's work as a way of honoring him; moving on past his death. Revenge on Bruce was, as she said, a reward. What's interesting is that the relationship between Bruce and Miranda allowed Talia to become the knife to the heart in a sort of throwback to Ra's line in BB about walking up behind someone and stabbing them in the heart. I loved the turn, and the fact that Miranda's characterization isn't lost in the reveal makes Talia a much strong character, even when you know what's coming.

Talia's motive is driven by the old saying "you don't know what you got till its gone." Its perfectly reasonable for someone to suddenly realize that they had feelings for an estranged relative, and be angry or upset that they can't reconcile with said relative.

My interpretation is based chiefly on the dialogue between Blake and the orphan in the beginning about work in the sewers, Bane's dialogue during the sewer fight, the backstory as given by Talia and Talia's line to Bruce: "Innocent (innocence?) is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

So very well said, Jerry! Welcome to the board. You captured a lot of the emotions that drove Bane. People tend to focus on his relationship with Talia, but really his relationship (or lack thereof) with Ra's is really at the base of what drives him. And if someone needs photographic proof of this, all you have to do is check out this .gif, a moment right after Batman mocks him with, "You were excommunicated by a gang of psychopaths."



The distant look in Bane's eyes shows several emotions that are, to me, all related to the excommunicate (and not the bit about psychopaths ): anger, pain, rejection, loss. After the pit Bane no doubt thought he had found a purpose, a home, and a family with Ra's and Talia only to have Ra's reject him, even after Bane was responsible for saving Ra's child. Cold, man. Cold. And, as Talia pointed out, Ra's revulsion toward Bane didn't have as much to do with Bane being a "monster" but with the fact that looking at "the monster" reminded Ra's of what his own poor judgment (falling in love with Melisande--the warlord's daughter) caused his wife, his child, and ultimately another person--Bane himself.

You're both right but this is exactly what I thought took away from both characters. Everything was either Ra's or my father. The very reason for both of them even being in gotham is Ra's. It's just Ra's and his plans 2.0 and the movie never tried to break out. The scale was massive but most of the things being done were done before and because of those parallels and wanting full circle the room for creativity and imagination was lost. It's like the staircase paradox in Inception. It might appear that you're raising the steaks and going higher but if the idea behind that is too similar to your previous in it's very conception you end up at the same level. I believe Nolan could have achieved full circle or make it appear that was what he was heading for and still break out of the loop to give the movie that extra punch that it needed. Why not let Bane hate Bruce also because he represents everything that he never was or given a chance to be from birth? (Bruce had it all and could lead a life Bane would have killed for but risks it to exact judgement on criminals who Bane was forced to live among at an early age while turning a blind eye to the corrupt elite and the deeper problem and it's causes). If we go with the origin of Bane being thrown in prison because of his father without the least thought of mercy for an innocent child, it could also give him the perfect reason to despise the symbol of the Batman which was created only because of his parents (who would want him to lead a normal life) being murdered. Bruce taunts death because of a random act of violence on his parents while Bane was given no choice because of his. Why not have Bane view the very existence of such a symbol/persona born from such twisted logic and complete opposite of his very being as being poisonous to gotham's soul (hence everyone must die) regardless if the symbol was already tainted at the end of TDK? Apart from Bruce and Batman representing the highest form of hypocrisy personally hence the poisoning of gotham, the occupy movement could have been something more dear to him although he was going to kill them any ways (due to the symbolic poisoning) because the powerful elite represented those with power who put him away and in his mind he is avenging himself personally from the grasps of that which torments him as a man and who and what was responsible. It's like him an Bruce where meant to be direct opposites from their very conception and he would view the deformation of Bruce Wayne (instant death would be too easy a faith) and erasing everything the symbol has ever stood for as his life's purpose. Won't go into details on how he would achieve this until my other post.

Breck12 wrote: You're both right but this is exactly what I thought took away from both characters. Everything was either Ra's or my father. The very reason for both of them even being in gotham is Ra's. It's just Ra's and his plans 2.0 and the movie never tried to break out. The scale was massive but most of the things being done were done before and because of those parallels and wanting full circle the room for creativity and imagination was lost. It's like the staircase paradox in Inception. It might appear that you're raising the steaks and going higher but if the idea behind that is too similar to your previous in it's very conception you end up at the same level. I believe Nolan could have achieved full circle or make it appear that was what he was heading for and still break out of the loop to give the movie that extra punch that it needed. Why not let Bane hate Bruce also because he represents everything that he never was or given a chance to be from birth? (Bruce had it all and could lead a life Bane would have killed for but risks it to exact judgement on criminals who Bane was forced to live among at an early age while turning a blind eye to the corrupt elite and the deeper problem and it's causes). If we go with the origin of Bane being thrown in prison because of his father without the least thought of mercy for an innocent child, it could also give him the perfect reason to despise the symbol of the Batman which was created only because of his parents (who would want him to lead a normal life) being murdered. Bruce taunts death because of a random act of violence on his parents while Bane was given no choice because of his. Why not have Bane view the very existence of such a symbol/persona born from such twisted logic and complete opposite of his very being as being poisonous to gotham's soul (hence everyone must die) regardless if the symbol was already tainted at the end of TDK? Apart from Bruce and Batman representing the highest form of hypocrisy personally hence the poisoning of gotham, the occupy movement could have been something more dear to him although he was going to kill them any ways (due to the symbolic poisoning) because the powerful elite represented those with power who put him away and in his mind he is avenging himself personally from the grasps of that which torments him as a man and who and what was responsible. It's like him an Bruce where meant to be direct opposites from their very conception and he would view the deformation of Bruce Wayne (instant death would be too easy a faith) and erasing everything the symbol has ever stood for as his life's purpose. Won't go into details on how he would achieve this until my other post.

EXACTLY!!! Thank you! The point is that for Talia, it ultimately came down to daddy issues. And Bane wanted to protect a girl. Which is okay. But that's just it - it was just "OK". I feel that for this third and final "epic" chapter in the story, Bane needed to hate the very symbol of Batman and the things that Bruce stood for in order for the story and conflict in the movie to have any significant punch to it. I remember Nolan saying in interviews that we would find out more about what drives Bane as the movie went on. I was expecting that he would have a deep, rooted hatred of the symbol of Batman and the corrupt aristocracy, but at the end of the day, Bane was doing his deeds out of love for Talia and a sense of duty towards Ra's, and Talia was doing her deeds to avenge her father whom she hated anyway. Doesn't anyone else think that in four years' time, Nolan/Goyer could have come up with something a little more exciting and with a little more substance than "my father, my protector, etc"? Bane in the comics shares a hatred towards Batman along the lines of what I and Breck12 have suggested. An intense hatred towards Bruce/Batman himself would have added a lot more positive weight to the movie.

Batfan175 wrote:. Bane and talia were good but apparently most people expected another crazy performance à la Joker so there you go.

If Heath was still alive..that is what we would have got. And nobody would have complained.

Jungian wrote:

Batfan175 wrote:. Bane and talia were good but apparently most people expected another crazy performance à la Joker so there you go.

If Heath was still alive..that is what we would have got. And nobody would have complained.

No. The performances are not what people on this thread are complaining about, and no one is asking for more Heath or more Joker. It's the motivations that are at fault. Too much was being done for Ra's, and as such, Bane was not his own man, because Bane wanted to:

1. Fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny
2. Act out of love and devotion towards Talia

Why can't Bane be his own man? His badassness was so limited because he was achieving things for the sake of other people or for the wishes of other people, and not because of any rooted ideologies of his own.

nolangoatdirector wrote:

Jungian wrote:
If Heath was still alive..that is what we would have got. And nobody would have complained.

No. The performances are not what people on this thread are complaining about, and no one is asking for more Heath or more Joker. It's the motivations that are at fault. Too much was being done for Ra's, and as such, Bane was not his own man, because Bane wanted to:

1. Fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny
2. Act out of love and devotion towards Talia

Why can't Bane be his own man? His badassness was so limited because he was achieving things for the sake of other people or for the wishes of other people, and not because of any rooted ideologies of his own.

Gotcha. Compared to all previous villains, Bane and Talia were not fleshed out much in character. And that is a shame.

To answer the question. Yes I think Bane and Talia were excellent villains.

I'm pretty sure I've pointed this out before in another thread but none of the characters in this trilogy have been their own man.

Alfred is a slave to Bruce. Sure it was as a surrogate father but he was living for Bruce and never his own life.
Bruce is a slave to his parents, batman, Gotham, Ra's.
Gordon is a slave to Gotham to a fault and his family suffers for it.
Scarecrow was a slave to his mask, his work, a slave to fear.
Ra's is a slave to his ideal, the league and his wife. He too is doing everything out of love for a woman just like Bane. Ra's didn't just cast out Bane because he reminded him of his wife but because he reminded him of himself.
Harvey/Two Face is one of the best examples here. As harvey he was a man who believed in making opportunities instead of circumstance and became a slave to chance.
Selina was a slave to her criminal record and lifestyle. She didn't have to live that way. But she at least was fighting to be free of her slavery. Unlike Bruce and Bane who were both using it in way.
Talia is a slave to her father, to the league.
Bane is a slave to Ra's, Talia, the pit. It's interesting that Bane gets the most criticism for not being his own man. How could he be his own man? His life was saved from a literal hell. Most people would devote their life to the person that saved them. It's a common and human reaction.

I'll get to the Joker in a minute.

These people are all devoted to an ideal. We all are. I realize devotion and slavery are two different things but that's just it. You can love something and passionately pursue it and then one day you realize it's running your life and not the other way around. That's exactly what Batman is for Bruce.

I think one of the morals in this trilogy is that you have to sometimes be your own man and other people are not your responsibility. Alfred leaving Bruce and Bruce letting Ra's die in the train crash was a perfect example of this relieving yourself of the responsibility from the lives of others. Another good example is when Joker tempted Two Face. Joker was manipulating him but at the same time encouraging him to be his own man. And Bane then does this again to the people of Gotham.

I mistakenly said before that the joker was a slave to chaos. But I was wrong. The Joker has no ideal, no loyalty to anyone or anything. And that's what makes him so interesting. He truly is a dog chasing cars, he just does things. And in a way he makes a lot of sense. The best villains are the ones that make you think for a second that they're right.

But in the end you can't live like that. You have to believe in someone or something. Or you'll be just that. A dog chasing cars and you won't know what to do with one when you catch it.