SPAWNmaster wrote:

sickofsickness wrote:
Im with you.

I really think that the idea he was dreaming the whole time cheapens and bastardizes the whole movie. If he was, why? to what end? What does this accomplish?

Ill twist your nipple further...what if the WHOLE thing was a dream, and no inception technology exists at all!!? WHAT IF MAL WAS STILL ALIVE and this was just a nightmare??

What if shes not really dead, and the whole thing is an allegory for divorce?

I mean....we could keep doing this, but I do believe that the movie did allow us to experience 'reality' to some extent, and I think the scenes with his father were those scenes.

Okay, maybe his father was dead to!! (dun dun dunnnnn)....

Saying the whole thing was a dream makes it seem like a shaymalan movie. None of Nolan's movies have that cheap of an ending.

Im not trying to be rude or sound like a dick. Im just saying that while the discussion of this is great, I need more evidence to convince me. As far as ME providing you evidence...I need to see it more times.

This is a great post...and a notion that I'm personally wrestling with as I "think out" the movie for myself. Most of me thinks the whole thing is one large limbo sequence, but like you imply- where do we draw the line?

Thank you. And I want to add that this whole discussion we are having is akin to a paranoid, neurotic person who thinks every time someone looks at them funny, that person hates them. In other words, we are looking for things that arent there and then looking for evidence to support those claims, but the data points being provided are thin, at best. Its pure intuition. And if Nolan came out and said "congratualations, you figured it out. it really was all just a dream.", I would honestly like the movie less.

What moved me so much on the 2nd viewing, nearly to tears was Mal. 1st time I saw it, I thought she was an unlikable bitch, and I was glad he let her go. 2nd time, I had tremendous sympathy for her and for Cobb. The way I see it, MY interpretation, from the darker subtext of the film, she was not satisfied with life to begin with. Hence, thats why they created the dream. It was so so so much more rewarding than her own life. Its okay for us to "dream big", but we should really always treasure what we have, not what isn't there. It simultaneously stagnates growth, and accelerates it, rotting the brain. After Cobb took the notion away from Mal, it was unbearable for her. She had a great marriage and a great family, but held against the dream she created, it wasn't enough for her. Without the dream, she was vulnerable, fragile, and helpless. The paradise that they built for themselves destroyed her AND Cobb. We see from the window ledge that he let go of that dream world, and for him, reality was far more rewarding. He says this. He does not want to go back to their dream world simply because he knows it is not real.

This means he has a rational side, and prefers reality.

That alone makes me question these statements about how he created the dream to satiate his own desires, because he seems like the kind of main willing to endure pain as long as he was as close to the truth as possible.

In fact, I can say the movie is partly an allegory for religion/atheism....there is the notion for taking a leap of faith (there are some very smart people in these forums asking for evidence to support claims, which is the true sign of a skeptic), and faith, by definition is just accepting things without questioning them...Cobb is certainly not that type of man. Mal was.

So after this unedited ramble...I just want to say that while ambiguity is great and starts brilliant discussions, saying it was a dream the whole time makes it impossible to trust anything we see. If we too are invited to take a leap of faith, then we are not told where that leap will lead us. It would just be Nolan saying "Shh, follow me." and when we ask where we are going, he just says "No questions. Shh." and then...cut to black. For it to all be a dream would mean that everything in the film, even Cobb's own journey was pointless, and with that, I don't give a crap about him or is stupid subconscious. Because once again, if it were all a dream, we missed that ride and "slept" through it.

If the entire film is a dream it shouldn't cheapen the film. The film itself isn't real, so whether it was a reality dreamed up by the filmmaker in the first place, or one imagined by Dom in his own head, it isn't a reality either way.

Either way, Dom seems to come to a point of resolution in the story, this is either in his dream or imagined by the filmmaker. It's at a linear point in the story where we can accept the conclusion as reality or not. If the whole film is a dream, Dom is the filmmaker, the architect of his own dream and it is populated by the disturbing elements of his psyche. If Dom wasn't dreaming at the end or at other parts of the film, certainly the actual filmmaker was the architect of the dream, as the whole film is a work of fiction. Dom's dream created a reality within which he could find closure to troubling circumstances in his mind, does not a filmmaker do the same?

sickofsickness wrote:What moved me so much on the 2nd viewing, nearly to tears was Mal. 1st time I saw it, I thought she was an unlikable bitch, and I was glad he let her go. 2nd time, I had tremendous sympathy for her and for Cobb. The way I see it, MY interpretation, from the darker subtext of the film, she was not satisfied with life to begin with. Hence, thats why they created the dream. It was so so so much more rewarding than her own life. Its okay for us to "dream big", but we should really always treasure what we have, not what isn't there. It simultaneously stagnates growth, and accelerates it, rotting the brain. After Cobb took the notion away from Mal, it was unbearable for her. She had a great marriage and a great family, but held against the dream she created, it wasn't enough for her. Without the dream, she was vulnerable, fragile, and helpless. The paradise that they built for themselves destroyed her AND Cobb. We see from the window ledge that he let go of that dream world, and for him, reality was far more rewarding. He says this. He does not want to go back to their dream world simply because he knows it is not real.

This means he has a rational side, and prefers reality.

That alone makes me question these statements about how he created the dream to satiate his own desires, because he seems like the kind of main willing to endure pain as long as he was as close to the truth as possible.

In fact, I can say the movie is partly an allegory for religion/atheism....there is the notion for taking a leap of faith (there are some very smart people in these forums asking for evidence to support claims, which is the true sign of a skeptic), and faith, by definition is just accepting things without questioning them...Cobb is certainly not that type of man. Mal was.

So after this unedited ramble...I just want to say that while ambiguity is great and starts brilliant discussions, saying it was a dream the whole time makes it impossible to trust anything we see. If we too are invited to take a leap of faith, then we are not told where that leap will lead us. It would just be Nolan saying "Shh, follow me." and when we ask where we are going, he just says "No questions. Shh." and then...cut to black. For it to all be a dream would mean that everything in the film, even Cobb's own journey was pointless, and with that, I don't give a crap about him or is stupid subconscious. Because once again, if it were all a dream, we missed that ride and "slept" through it.

I'm not sure if you could exactly make the dreamworld a metaphor for religion. Nobody knows what happens to us after we die, so anybody's belief is as good as mine.

Because of Mal's inception by Cobb, she lost her way and believed that whatever she was experiencing wasn't real. She lost her connection to the real world, because the doubt took over her mind. I don't think it was because she "preferred" the dream world (which is what Cypher did in The Matrix), it's just that she believed there was another level above them because the world she was in didn't feel real anymore.

Crap, now that I've posted that, it does sound kind of like religion. Still, most religious people don't go killing themselves because they have to prove their worthiness in the afterlife by doing good things while living.

Someone in a Fark thread said they thought the whole movie was about a conspiracy to get Cobb to retire as his projections of Mal were putting all of their lives in danger:

I might as well link the whole thread, but be warned...full of snark and smugness. But thats what makes Fark so great:

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5489749

The post I just mentioned is the loooong one closer to the top 1/3

(posters name is "Loading...", so you can ctrl+F that if you need to)

I think this whole discussion show's that Mr. Nolan is amazing and did EXACTLY what I'm sure he set out to do. I continue with this, Movies are supposed to engage you yes? They are supposed to make you feel like you a part of the action. The whole movie Cobb is struggling with whether what he is experiencing is reality or a dream and the whole time we don't struggle with that because we are watching his life and we see him come out and the answer is simple (most of the time). Then at the end he leaves us with a spinning top questioning whether what we are experiencing is "real" or a "dream" we finally understand Cobb. The one part of him that we couldn't possibly connect with we couldn't fully comprehend and the only way this was achievable is exactly the way it was done and Mr. Nolan wipes his hands and leaves as his job is done.

I have to say, anyone that thinks it being a dream cheapens the movie... then I just don't think you were into the movie as much as me.

Even if the whole thing was a dream, it was all real to Dom. And if it's all real to Dom, isn't that the important thing? Dom will be just as satisfied in his dream as he would in real life, because to him it makes no difference. That's why he walks away from the spinning top at the end. He doesn't care if is real or isn't. He is satisfied.

If it really mattered that much, he would have stayed and watched the top. He walked away because at that point, the whole thing being a dream wouldn't have cheapened a damn thing to him.

If the entirety of the movie even up to the ending WAS a dream, and Mal did make the correct decision killing herself to escape it, then I think we can all assume that she would go back into the dream whether it be Cobb's or limbo, out of love for Cobb, to bring him back into reality, wouldn't you say?
However, it could take Mal a ridiculously long period of time from Cobb's frame of reference, because if he is still in the dream world, then there is a lot of time passing by for him compared to the real world.
Maybe Mal eventually will come back and save him if he is dreaming.
Maybe she was wrong after all and is no longer alive in the 'real' world.
All I know is that I would like to discuss the possibilities with Nolan but I know that won't happen =/

Even if the whole thing was a dream, it was all real to Dom. And if it's all real to Dom, isn't that the important thing? Dom will be just as satisfied in his dream as he would in real life, because to him it makes no difference.

It makes a huge difference to him. The whole basis to his character is that he needs to be in reality rather than a dream. It's what he says to Mal at the climax of the film, and repeats to Ariadne, and tells Saito.

If Dom came back into that room and saw the spinning top, he would try to get back to reality.

sickofsickness wrote: So after this unedited ramble...I just want to say that while ambiguity is great and starts brilliant discussions, saying it was a dream the whole time makes it impossible to trust anything we see. If we too are invited to take a leap of faith, then we are not told where that leap will lead us. It would just be Nolan saying "Shh, follow me." and when we ask where we are going, he just says "No questions. Shh." and then...cut to black. For it to all be a dream would mean that everything in the film, even Cobb's own journey was pointless, and with that, I don't give a crap about him or is stupid subconscious. Because once again, if it were all a dream, we missed that ride and "slept" through it.

pay attention to the bold....this is my favourite line from the movie "You're waiting for a train...a train that will take you far away,you can't be sure where it will take you,but it doesn't matter....because we'll be together" :mrgreen:

choroqie wrote:

sickofsickness wrote: So after this unedited ramble...I just want to say that while ambiguity is great and starts brilliant discussions, saying it was a dream the whole time makes it impossible to trust anything we see. If we too are invited to take a leap of faith, then we are not told where that leap will lead us. It would just be Nolan saying "Shh, follow me." and when we ask where we are going, he just says "No questions. Shh." and then...cut to black. For it to all be a dream would mean that everything in the film, even Cobb's own journey was pointless, and with that, I don't give a crap about him or is stupid subconscious. Because once again, if it were all a dream, we missed that ride and "slept" through it.

pay attention to the bold....this is my favourite line from the movie "You're waiting for a train...a train that will take you far away,you can't be sure where it will take you,but it doesn't matter....because we'll be together" :mrgreen:

yeah, that was somewhat intentional.

I didnt plan it, but once I saw where it was going, I went with it.