American Hustle (2013)

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dafox wrote:Armand is a good guy in my book.
He was never a villain.

And Armand, I get your point, it's just that right now I'm alergic to ''factual'' opinions and you do that a lot, no matter how nicely wrapped up it looks. To be fair, at least there's lots of meat on that bone as well, it's a rarity and I respect you for that.

But still, to call it one of the best American movies in the last 5-10 years... Let's just say we don't agree on the assessment and move on.

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To say "I honestly don't give a fuck what other people do with it" and then expect actual discourse here seems like a futile effort.

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Vader182 wrote:The trouble is audiences mistake the artificiality of the characters with the film itself being artificial. Or, that the winding tangential rambling nature of the narrative wasn't deliberate. Audiences continue to have imposed expectations on what a movie has to be, and when the film subverts that, they wander in circles crying as though their eyes had been gauged out since the movie forced them to open their eyes too wide.


-Vader
Part of this is due to another con entirely: that of movie marketing.

The American was a good example of this. You'd be forgiven for thinking that Hustle would be a straight-up genre heist film.

Essentially, the ideal scenario in which you watch a film is where you see no footage beforehand, know nothing about it, maybe not even the title, and have never seen anyone in the film in anything else before. Which... we can't have.

I will reiterate: there are no factual opinions, everything's an opinion, but there's baseless comment and there's substantiated comment. That's what I'm trying to make the distinction between here. What I'm saying isn't wrong or right, but I'm trying to draw from the material to make a point, rather than make a point and dismiss the need to cite the material.

And I'm not dismissing what other people would say on here, I'm saying I don't really give that much of a fuck if everyone else in the world loathes the film utterly as time goes by as long as I can still watch it and enjoy it. Buuut I don't think it's unreasonable to expect and demand discourse in a forum, of all things.

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Let me take an actual crack at this, but I'll just say in advance that I really won't have the time to keep up with much of a debate after this post.

American Hustle is a good movie. It's exceptionally acted and proficiently constructed. However, proficient construction is not something I overwhelmingly admire in art. In fact, given the choice between a technically well-constructed movie and a hot mess that reeks of passion, I'd prefer the latter. American Hustle is, however, not quite an "Argo" situation (the movie does have something to say), but it's not far off. Well-acted, well-made, forgettable.

And let me just start off by countering Armand's point that this makes people of our time and place uncomfortable. First of all, a movie that uses Abscam as its jumping off point doesn't strike me as particularly topical. In direct contrast with Social Network, this movie reeks of nostalgia and period, so the idea that it's characters are too "uncomfortable" for a modern audience doesn't make much sense. It also doesn't help that the film's script was basically chucked aside in favor of Russell and Co.'s improv initiative. Again, this is in direct contrast with The Social Network (the best example of the modern, uncomfortable film you speak of), wherein Aaron Sorkin was on set nearly every day, preserving his message, his character work, and his language.

In fact, let's talk about the script. A script that thinks it's a good idea to show the middle of the movie first, jump back to the beginning, and then proceed through to the end. Even Russell and Co.'s improv can't "fix" amateurish writing structure. As such, even people who liked the movie will admit that the beginning is an unnecessary slog. Which is fine, of course; I love a good slow-burn, but only if the payoff makes it worth it. And, on that account, this script is far from the Shakespearian slow-burns I enjoy. Its payoff is a plot-turn (which seems odd for a movie supposedly committed to character) and I can't shake the feeling that...

...even the characters aren't all that great. Proficient? Yes. Exceptional? Not even close. First of all, I've never even heard of a mostly-improv'd character study. But let's just say there is. I wish I understood the nuance of these characters, whose goals are so one-dimensional you can predict how they'll all clash from the start (making the slow-burn even more of a slog). I think that sometimes people confuse good acting for good character work, and unfortunately, what you get here is the illusion of depth. Interestingly enough, the movie itself is at fault in dressing itself up to appear more interesting than it actually is. Making Christian Bale fat and having him conflicted between such cliche things as doing the right thing and being selfish is not new, it's not fresh, and certainly not great character work. Bradley Cooper's character (can't even remember the name) is a walking, talking one-dimension. And Robert DeNiro graciously pops in to embody a lovely, stereotypical version of every role he's ever played. I can just see it now: in the future people will be walking around sharing their favorite fictional characters with their friends, "Indiana Jones, Vito Corleone, The Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Irving Rosenfeld."

And, last but not least, Linus Sandgren's lensing made me want to vomit. And it's not entirely his fault, especially when you have a director who insists that you can't have traditional lighting set-ups because the camera must be able to move 360 degrees at any given time.

Put simply, every notable moment in this movie had me thinking of how another movie did that kind of moment better (Casino, anyone?). There's nothing glaringly "wrong" with it, but there's nothing memorable either. When we look over film history and iconic imagery flashes before our eyes, I challenge anyone to tell me what that image would be from American Hustle.

It's good, but it's forgettable. It's derivative, it's characters are merely performances, and it's ideas/themes can be articulated in a paper-thin sentence (as Armand has done quite well).

Then again, maybe I'm just bitter about Inside Llewyn Davis' exclusion.

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o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:And let me just start off by countering Armand's point that this makes people of our time and place uncomfortable. First of all, a movie that uses Abscam as its jumping off point doesn't strike me as particularly topical. In direct contrast with Social Network, this movie reeks of nostalgia and period, so the idea that it's characters are too "uncomfortable" for a modern audience doesn't make much sense.
That's an awfully dogmatic view of how a film can say something. The Dirty Dozen is set in World War II but it's about Vietnam. Arthur Miller wasn't making comment on Salem with The Crucible, he was making comment on McCarthy. Same as High Noon. Russell is making a film for a modern audience, he's not interested in emulating 70s filmmaking style or structure or even accurately documenting or doing reportage on a period of American history, he's using an arena where he can heighten the characters to illustrate what he's talking about.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:It also doesn't help that the film's script was basically chucked aside in favor of Russell and Co.'s improv initiative. Again, this is in direct contrast with The Social Network (the best example of the modern, uncomfortable film you speak of), wherein Aaron Sorkin was on set nearly every day, preserving his message, his character work, and his language.
But Russell took Singer's script and rewrote it. So... the writer was on set every day. He also happened to be directing it. Rosalyn doesn't even exist in Singer's script. This is a frequent phenomenon with directors who can write - they might take an existing work, like the trappings, but find that they're not interested in saying the same thing so they bend it to purpose. The director is the true author of a film after all.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:In fact, let's talk about the script. A script that thinks it's a good idea to show the middle of the movie first, jump back to the beginning, and then proceed through to the end. Even Russell and Co.'s improv can't "fix" amateurish writing structure. As such, even people who liked the movie will admit that the beginning is an unnecessary slog. Which is fine, of course; I love a good slow-burn, but only if the payoff makes it worth it. And, on that account, this script is far from the Shakespearian slow-burns I enjoy.
Yep, I'm not an avid fan of the first act, I think the freewheeling, loose narration could be polished, but the start-point is informed. The opening scene sets the tone and theme, and the succeeding scenes set up the players to be, and the key issues of genuine frauds, would-be frauds, and genuine people colliding within an elaborate government scheme.

But stating that you enjoy Shakespeare and Shakespearean slow-burn drama has got... nothing to do with American Hustle, surely. This film is closer to being a screwball comedy than a Shakespearean drama - perhaps it has some similarity to a Shakespeare comedy where there's all sorts of cross-purposes, misunderstandings and deceptions, but if you rocked up ready for Hamlet or King Lear you've kinda got the wrong film. This is His Girl Friday or The Awful Truth by way of California Split.

o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:Its payoff is a plot-turn (which seems odd for a movie supposedly committed to character
The pay-off isn't a plot turn, it's the two main characters being able to escape their own ruse and be together as two people in a genuine relationship.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote: First of all, I've never even heard of a mostly-improv'd character study.
Get onto Mike Leigh.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:I wish I understood the nuance of these characters, whose goals are so one-dimensional you can predict how they'll all clash from the start (making the slow-burn even more of a slog). I think that sometimes people confuse good acting for good character work, and unfortunately, what you get here is the illusion of depth. Interestingly enough, the movie itself is at fault in dressing itself up to appear more interesting than it actually is. Making Christian Bale fat and having him conflicted between such cliche things as doing the right thing and being selfish is not new, it's not fresh, and certainly not great character work.
But it's not a choice between doing the right thing and being selfish, it's a choice about what are the genuine and real things in his life that he has discovered that he has to sacrifice in order to improve himself and have some degree of self-esteem. It's about how can he escape the construct that he's stuck in without losing the things that he cherishes about it, and how can he con his way out of the FBI's and the mob's clutches without losing the friendship of Carmine. Irving's problems aren't moral ones, they're emotional and personal ones that have to do with how he can take respite from his own act. Ultimately he wins, he ends up with Sydney, with whom he has a genuine personal connection, but he also lost Carmine. And that is always a fresh and exciting concept for a character, to have someone who is genuinely sick of himself and wants to escape the version of himself that he's fashioned to enjoy Jeep's Blues with someone else.

The same goes for Sydney, who is so scarred by what she had been that she continually reinvents herself to the point where she's forgotten what she is. The "sense memory" so to speak is the music that saved her life, the one thing that she has a genuine emotional connection to. And so naturally when she finds someone who has that mutual connection, she's going to fight to be with that person. Again, we're not talking about morality, we're talking about improvement through emotional validation, going back to what we know to be real about ourselves and escaping the fiction that we build around ourselves.

To wit, Irving's most demonstrative gestures and traits all but disappear around Sydney, he doesn't need to keep "in character" with her, and in due course the same goes for Carmine, but when dealing with Rosalyn or DiMaso he talks with his hands, he makes his apparent intent and character very clear. This is why Russell fixates on those things, it's why he burrows into anything constructed by the characters with his camera, because that's ultimately what he's talking about. The things that we consciously do to build a character that isn't our true self, and that's what the relevance is to today's world, where people collate and collect every single detail about their lives, fashioning some sort of non-existent narrative to be plastered all over the internet. It's why tattoos and piercings and whatnot are more and more in vogue, people need some sort of artificial and obvious way to individualise and create an image that is all about what they want others to think of them and nothing to do with what they honestly, genuinely are as a person. It's the hypocrisy of a society that is stuck between the toxic extremes of accepting who you are for what you are, or creating an entirely new, entirely fake version of yourself for public consumption. By going into the world of the con, Russell heightens that, turns it into a dramatic and comedic construct, champions those who want to improve themselves by tapping into something real and holding onto it, and similarly casting aside those who are vapid and witlessly enterprising, like DiMaso.

o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:I can just see it now: in the future people will be walking around sharing their favorite fictional characters with their friends, "Indiana Jones, Vito Corleone, The Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Irving Rosenfeld."
"Indiana Jones, Vito Corleone, The Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Juror #8." Equally as ridiculous.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:And, last but not least, Linus Sandgren's lensing made me want to vomit. And it's not entirely his fault, especially when you have a director who insists that you can't have traditional lighting set-ups because the camera must be able to move 360 degrees at any given time.
Howard Hawks didn't get Gregg Toland to do His Girl Friday. It would be a pointless exercise, the film has other priorities.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:Put simply, every notable moment in this movie had me thinking of how another movie did that kind of moment better (Casino, anyone?). There's nothing glaringly "wrong" with it, but there's nothing memorable either. When we look over film history and iconic imagery flashes before our eyes, I challenge anyone to tell me what that image would be from American Hustle.
Casino has nothing to do with this film, it - like many other Scorsese films are interested in the business and hierarchy of their worlds and how the characters fit into and cope with it. It's not the trapping or the set dressing, it is the film in those cases. As for the iconic images of American Hustle, you can't tell me people will struggle to identify the film if you give them a frame from the shot used for the title card, with the card obviously removed.
o SHAKESPEARE o wrote:Then again, maybe I'm just bitter about Inside Llewyn Davis' exclusion.
You and me both, brother.

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I don't see why moral choices are mutually exclusive with everything else you just said. Protecting a friend, and people, is juxtaposed with blind and ruthless ambition. What is that if not a moral question?


-Vader

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o SHAKESPEARE o wrote: ...even the characters aren't all that great. Proficient? Yes. Exceptional? Not even close. First of all, I've never even heard of a mostly-improv'd character study. But let's just say there is. I wish I understood the nuance of these characters, whose goals are so one-dimensional you can predict how they'll all clash from the start (making the slow-burn even more of a slog). I think that sometimes people confuse good acting for good character work, and unfortunately, what you get here is the illusion of depth. Interestingly enough, the movie itself is at fault in dressing itself up to appear more interesting than it actually is. Making Christian Bale fat and having him conflicted between such cliche things as doing the right thing and being selfish is not new, it's not fresh, and certainly not great character work. Bradley Cooper's character (can't even remember the name) is a walking, talking one-dimension. And Robert DeNiro graciously pops in to embody a lovely, stereotypical version of every role he's ever played. I can just see it now: in the future people will be walking around sharing their favorite fictional characters with their friends, "Indiana Jones, Vito Corleone, The Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Irving Rosenfeld."
All in favor

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Vader182 wrote:I don't see why moral choices are mutually exclusive with everything else you just said. Protecting a friend, and people, is juxtaposed with blind and ruthless ambition. What is that if not a moral question?


-Vader
Of course there are moral questions in there. But I don't think they're the prime movers in the way they would be in His Girl Friday.

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