The problem is it generally takes a lot of time for people in the center on these kinds of issues to come around and because of that the extremes on both sides will be the only voices really heard. That's where fighting and violence come into place. Often times the extremists on the right overwhelm those on the left and get their way.

The original Planet of the Apes really was a statement about the state of Western society when confronted with new ideas and practices. Maybe this one will have some similar ideas.

chee wrote: But I will say this, America, Britain, Germany, Sweden, Italy, and all those countries TODAY are trying to be and are more accepting towards others (more so than the Eastern/third-world countries, where lesbians are still raped on a street corner and people blow up buildings in the name of a deity). We have the nasty minority (particularly located in the Southern part of America), and a nasty past, but the average Joe would like to get along with his neighbor.

Getting along with your neighbor doesn't mean the humans get along with humans very well. You're talking about a part of these countries... the world population however will soon be 7 billion... hmm...

chee wrote: The racial problems are almost completely gone, I see the occasional racist joke, but there aren't any lynched minorities hanging from a tree branch here anymore.

The racial problems are completely gone. Still, Barack Obama became president more than 3 years ago. Still, there are many racial issues going on. You don't need someone hanging up from a tree branch to say you have racial issues.

chee wrote: Religious tolerance, here in the West, is more widespread, people aren't shoving each other into ovens or starting wars over a holy book.

Religious tolerance in the West more widespread? What a joke!... Look at the program television and the all this bullsh*t campaign that is going on for years denigrating arabs, muslims, Jay Leno making jokes on the talibans and Allah... It's obvious it's an ongoing propaganda against the arab world and their god and book. Not to mention in U.S. exists the largest group of satanists, atheists and so on.

chee wrote:The only war going on is because of oil in the Middle East, and because some of the countries there can't deal with the fact that the West aren't Muslim.

The only MILITARY war is going on in the Middle East because of resources. Religion, muslims and all that crap have nothing to do with the americans and other western and eastern countries (like mine) being there. Second of all, there is not only one military war going on in the world. Probably the U.S. - Iraq was/is the biggest. There are other conflicts also. And since this conflict just re-started and it's a very tense situation... why do you think N.K. and S.K. don't co-exist?... Why do you think the U.S. just can't wait for the perfect moment to get into N.K. or Iran?...

chee wrote: I don't think they'd go to war with another species, in today's world. I think it would be more like the fight for civil rights, not the Jewish oppression during the Holocaust.

You know why Hitler wanted to eliminate all the jews?... Because of the Rotschilds, Rockefellers and so on... Because of the economic crisis (just like the one today)... Because of the jews banks devalorization of the Reichsmark... etc.

chee wrote: I guess you guys can call me an idealist, but I really think humans and an intelligent species could get along. I'll be one of those people with a picket sign on Washington, DC, fighting for rights for intelligent animals, if that day ever comes.

Humans and intelligent species could get along but only because of the politics, and that only on surface.

We can't get along with each other and any other intelligent species until the day humans will be spiritually evolved, until the day our knowledge will be far more advanced, until the day we, as species, will evolve mentally and see life from a different perspective. Until then, we will not stand each other. And even if the western countries would have been better and different in a good way, we would still talk about 1.2-1.3 billion people and the world population will still be about 7 billion. So, therefore, there's no mathematical, political, military or moral majority to admit that we could co-exist in harmony and peace.

Just my thoughts... as for the movie... I'm excited in a way.

RIFA wrote:Getting along with your neighbor doesn't mean the humans get along with humans very well. You're talking about a part of these countries... the world population however will soon be 7 billion... hmm...

A lot of humans get along with humans very well. It's how we flourish as a society. Constantly killing each other, and never trusting and loving each other would mean the end of our species.

RIFA wrote:The racial problems are completely gone. Still, Barack Obama became president more than 3 years ago. Still, there are many racial issues going on. You don't need someone hanging up from a tree branch to say you have racial issues.

Ignoring the contradiction, I never said that they are completely gone. With every passing generation, the hate gets more and more diluted with acceptance and love (okay, sounds kind of hippie-ish but whatever ).

RIFA wrote:Religious tolerance in the West more widespread? What a joke!... Look at the program television and the all this bullsh*t campaign that is going on for years denigrating arabs, muslims, Jay Leno making jokes on the talibans and Allah... It's obvious it's an ongoing propaganda against the arab world and their god and book. Not to mention in U.S. exists the largest group of satanists, atheists and so on.

Religious criticism is different from religious oppression. I tolerate religion (I'm an atheist), I don't care what a person believes as long as they don't enforce their beliefs on me through laws like the DADT and the Defense of Marriage Act, but I critique its problems and contradictions.

RIFA wrote:The only MILITARY war is going on in the Middle East because of resources. Religion, muslims and all that crap have nothing to do with the americans and other western and eastern countries (like mine) being there. Second of all, there is not only one military war going on in the world. Probably the U.S. - Iraq was/is the biggest. There are other conflicts also. And since this conflict just re-started and it's a very tense situation... why do you think N.K. and S.K. don't co-exist?... Why do you think the U.S. just can't wait for the perfect moment to get into N.K. or Iran?...

I don't care about the North Korean conflict in this context since I'm not talking about them right now. I'm talking about the war that the Western countries are currently involved in.

We (USA, then dragged in our allies :\) invaded them for resources. They crashed their planes into our buildings because we don't have Sharia law implemented in our government.

And your country is part of the Western culture, so I'm not trying to attack your country.

RIFA wrote:You know why Hitler wanted to eliminate all the jews?... Because of the Rotschilds, Rockefellers and so on... Because of the economic crisis (just like the one today)... Because of the jews banks devalorization of the Reichsmark... etc.

He wanted to eliminate the Jews for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that he had a Catholic upbringing and believed that Jews were horrible people. The economic crisis and the religious intolerance between Jewish and Christian denominations really were the main tactics of the manipulation of the German people.

RIFA wrote:Humans and intelligent species could get along but only because of the politics, and that only on surface.

We can't get along with each other and any other intelligent species until the day humans will be spiritual evolved, until the day our knowledge will be far more advanced, until the day we, as species, will evolve mentally and see life from a different perspective. Until then, we will not stand each other. And even if the western countries would have been better and different in a good way, we would still talk about 1.2-1.3 billion people and the world population will still be about 7 billion. So, therefore, there's no mathematical, political, military or moral majority to admit that we could co-exist in harmony and peace.

Just my thoughts... as for the movie... I'm excited in a way.

I think that's too cold of you. I think I would be friends with an intelligent species, (even if they are oppressed by the government) much like how I have no problem having friends with religious people, ethnic people, or gay people (ignoring that I'm bi ).

If this intelligent animal loved Nolan, shared many interests with you, and could hold up an interesting conversation, wouldn't you befriend him/her? I sure as hell would. And if that animal became one of my closet friends, I sure as hell would fight for that person's rights as much as I could.

talli wrote:

MrG wrote:I thought Franco was the ape and Serkis was the human. Then whose Tom Felton? Ape or man?

serkis is the only ape

Well that's a bummer...

chee wrote: If this intelligent animal loved Nolan, shared many interests with you, and could hold up an interesting conversation, wouldn't you befriend him/her? I sure as hell would. And if that animal became one of my closet friends, I sure as hell would fight for that person's rights as much as I could.

I would and probably my friends too but I wasn't talking about just us, people from civilized countries or at least countries that try to be as civilized as they could be, I was talking in general. And I don't think the same rules apply, at least at this moment, for the whole world population. Not even for a majority.

And you said one thing that shows me that we're not capable at this moment to co-exist in peace. You said you would "fight for that person's rights" as much as you could... Remember what you said: person. A person. That person which agrees with you or that has some sort of common background or common hobbies. You mentioned a couple of reasons for you to fight for one person not for one race. There is the difference. You will fight for who you think you could be compatible with. I know that by "person" you (probably) meant the whole race or the whole nation or whatever but the thing is... most people do exactly what I mentioned. A white person may have a black and a muslim as friends. They would get along but at the end of the day if a conflict start between them the white guy will insult the black friend by calling him the N word or by making him feel shame for his past. He would call the muslim friend a terrorist and probably send him to worship Allah and leave him and his country alone... I witnessed things like these... and they are a matter of reality. Harsh reality... but that's the way things are.

That may be the way things are with you, but definitely not with me and the environment I'm in. If I have a fight with a person of color, I would never consider their skin color as a point of argument, same with a person's religious beliefs (if I'm in an argument ABOUT their religious beliefs, then its the opposite. I judge the beliefs and not the person).

I know a lot of people who don't go off in a tangent and insult a person for something that's not related to the argument. There are people who do, but those people are usually looked upon with disdain.

Say, for instance, a white person and a black person are having a heated argument in public. The white person, frustrated, calls the other person a "nigger". The surrounding people around them will look at the white person, and judge him in a negative light.

These social changes happen slowly, taking at least a decade before change shows up, but this change is what changes the human race as a whole.

America's separation of church and state spread in the European countries (and others) because it was a good social change. And it happens vice versa too, Britain was first to outlaw slavery and America (although put up a fight) followed as well. Social change can spread, and I believe that this social change will eventually affect other countries too. I think that some day, the Middle Eastern countries will get sick of the religious strife in their country and become secular countries along with the rest of the world.

I don't think that's the way things are. Even you said you want humans to be "spiritually evolved" but that can't happen with magic. It happens with cultural change.

And as for the person thing, I don't mean that as a person (although I would consider them equal to people). It was just a thing I type out of habit.
But to that point, even if the majority of that species were assholes, I'd still fight for their rights because that's the right thing to do. I still fight for Muslim rights even though the loud majority are dicks.

theweatherman wrote:

prince0gotham wrote:Uhm this is an awkward idea. Of all things I never imagined they'd decide to make a prequel to this franchise.

No kidding its only been done twice before, who could think of something like this.

I've never heard of a prequel to the planet of the apes. I mean a PREQUEL explaining how this shit happened. I've seen remakes but not a prequel.

prince0gotham wrote:

theweatherman wrote:
No kidding its only been done twice before, who could think of something like this.

I've never heard of a prequel to the planet of the apes. I mean a PREQUEL explaining how this shit happened. I've seen remakes but not a prequel.

I'm a bit hazy on my Apes mythos but I thought how this shit happened was explained in Escape To.... Wasn't it some kind of time travel anomaly?

I think what chee initially should've had in mind and the discussion that followed are quite separate. I think (and I think she forgot that) her first comment was directed at cinema or in other words "Why isn't there a movie about the human specie and another inteligent specie coexisting from start (of the film) to finish". The others tried to prove the point of 'because that's how it goes in life' but that's not the truth. Yes life's full of examples of species and races that are incapable of coexistance, but the real question was why isn't there a movie that doesn't pick the topic of the conflict between em. What happens in life is no excuse in this case. I mean a movie can easily have the kind of premise where let's say humans and some alien race have already overcome their differences and where the main topic isn't how stupid we are not to tolerate others and where the main topic is something else entirely.

chee wrote:

talli wrote:

but they can't...we'd be competing for the same resources, same land...the competition is there for very specific reasons.... laws of nature, Chee

We humans be killing other humans if that was true, our population is gigantic and the animal population is even more so. T

Chee...are you serious? humans have been doing that since the dawn of time....we just do it more cleanly now....not providing resources to countries who need it...not intervening in crises in other countries...what are we doing about Darfur? How are we solving any problems in the middle east?


its all out of competition for resources...competition for survival...there are endless examples of it