Watchmen (TV)

All non-Nolan related film, tv, and streaming discussions.
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I thought it did. Crudup did a great job.

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Master Virgo wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 7:42 pm

The finale was very fulfilling overall, but I think "A God Walks into Abar" and "This Extraordinary Being" remain as my favourite episodes.
Yes, those are the two best episodes, masterpieces to behold.
The last episode is centered around family member finally meeting and whilst Angela meeting her grandpa is a really great scene, the Ozymandias/Trieu relationship isn't as moving. It is in many ways, Ozymandias'episode, yet all the most emotional moments of the episode are without him (death of Jon, scene in the cinema). Disappointing also that Jean Smart and Tim Blake Nelson were not more important to the plot. And, as with the finale of Westworld Season 2 (same director), the stakes completely change half-way through the episode, and whilst you've been getting ready to see Cyclops try to take over the world since episode one, the threat of Trieu feels way too new to be as investing. The problem is that the change of threat, whilst making the stakes bigger, actually makes them feel smaller, because the emotional investment is less important. The finale is better than Westworld Season 2's, which already had some amazing moments before a very disappointing last half-hour, but it is not as good as the previous episodes.

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Demoph wrote:
December 17th, 2019, 6:30 pm
Master Virgo wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 7:42 pm

The finale was very fulfilling overall, but I think "A God Walks into Abar" and "This Extraordinary Being" remain as my favourite episodes.
Yes, those are the two best episodes, masterpieces to behold.
The last episode is centered around family member finally meeting and whilst Angela meeting her grandpa is a really great scene, the Ozymandias/Trieu relationship isn't as moving. It is in many ways, Ozymandias'episode, yet all the most emotional moments of the episode are without him (death of Jon, scene in the cinema). Disappointing also that Jean Smart and Tim Blake Nelson were not more important to the plot. And, as with the finale of Westworld Season 2 (same director), the stakes completely change half-way through the episode, and whilst you've been getting ready to see Cyclops try to take over the world since episode one, the threat of Trieu feels way too new to be as investing. The problem is that the change of threat, whilst making the stakes bigger, actually makes them feel smaller, because the emotional investment is less important. The finale is better than Westworld Season 2's, which already had some amazing moments before a very disappointing last half-hour, but it is not as good as the previous episodes.
I agree with pretty much all of this.

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•shakespear•’s post on manhattan is superb and i agree with him. it made me consider things i may not have thought of before. one thing tho:
if we’re to think of jon’s powers as a “cage” and suffering, and if we entertain the possibility of him transferring his powers via that egg (although personally i think he was just fucking around with that... or it’s something i’d like to believe lol)... how cruel is it for him to “offer” the exact same cage he was placed in involuntarily to someone he loves?

am i missing something?
and having seen snyder’s version a few days ago, i.... just have to agree Crudup’s Manhattan is the way to go. Mind you, I mean purely performance-wise, not necessarily in terms of writing. I don’t know if the makeup fucked with my perception way too much beyond repair, but I truly think that makeup was a mistake.

I cannot help but feel like certain things in the finale left me wanting...more? And it’s where I agree with what Demoph is saying. Honestly this show is fucking extraordinary
and it is why, with so many astounding things happening in it, I was simultaneously somewhat disappointed to see certain stuff somewhat alluded to, but never really elaborated upon.
And no, I’m not talking about Lube man lmao. I actually think it’s hilarious how we never ended up seeing him again.

I’m talking about Angela, although to a degree it kind of applies to some of the others, I guess. What was unique about the GN, upon its release and still remains to be, which is a memo Snyder completely missed, is that at its core it’s anti-superhero. It’s anti masks, it’s anti people just dealing their version of justice upon anyone they see fit. That much is obvious. It carries a lot of rich and complex, even politically charged themes that are still strongly felt in the show, but they somehow just casually managed to avoid Angela. The OG characters in the novel are all wrong in their own ways, and there’s always debate on which of them was more wrong than the other, which is the point. All of them are deeply flawed despite all of them having their reasons for that, and are just the kind of characters that could never be universally beloved. Angela is just... great. There is discussion on the internal pain and damage a mask (whether one worn by a vigilante or one in the law enforcement) causes, but never any repercussions for the damage they cause on others. The only genuinely “bad” thing we see her do is curse (jk) and beat up a person in Tulsa PD’s dollar store version of Gitmo. But even he was a racist, so that’s like... sorta “bad” but also “hell yeah, go, Angela!!” type of thing. I wouldn’t have really had much problems with this, but the thing is - the show sort of introduces and attempts to play with the idea that Tulsa PD sucks and even the “good” (protagonist) cops are complicit in borderline concentration camp behavior. And that was the “oh shit they’ll be calling out all sides in this show” moment that made me lose my marbles and think this show was about to be the most amazing thing since sliced bread. Instead, it’s short, and immediately left off to be never even acknowledged again. Maybe that’s my bad, but I kind of wanted that complexity. I kind of wanted to have to reconcile with the protagonists’ awful behavior to be able to root for them. I wanted the show to have the balls to showcase how almost everyone was rotten in their own ways, and how even inherently good things (redfordations) were bound to inflict genuine suffering even on the morally “bad guys” (gentrification).

It’s all amplified by Angela being that one singular *perfect* protagonist to whom literally EVERYTHING happens in the show. She survives a racially charged massacre, becomes a masked cop, so naturally, a protagonist. Odd shit happens, so she attempts to solve a conspiracy. But uhm also she’s the granddaughter of the very first masked adventurer! AND she’s banging Dr. Manhattan! AND it’s likely she even ‘becomes’ one! Angela is the epicenter of everything and for me it slightly cheapens the emotional load of the story, no only because other people are abandoned in favor of that, but also because it’s not really in tune with how the graphic novel was. It makes me kind of weird to be saying all of this, because I actually loved Angela and was rooting for her throughout the entirety of the series.
Just one more thing about the show - no fucking way they stop at season 1 lol. Also, I was typing all of this out on my phone so I forgot everything else I wanted to say lol

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Ruth wrote:
December 17th, 2019, 7:28 pm
•shakespear•’s post on manhattan is superb and i agree with him. it made me consider things i may not have thought of before. one thing tho:
if we’re to think of jon’s powers as a “cage” and suffering, and if we entertain the possibility of him transferring his powers via that egg (although personally i think he was just fucking around with that... or it’s something i’d like to believe lol)... how cruel is it for him to “offer” the exact same cage he was placed in involuntarily to someone he loves?

am i missing something?
You’re actually very right. In fact,
in A God Walks Into Abar, when they’re talking about that very same egg and Angela asks if he could transfer his powers to someone else, he replies (paraphrasing, generally): “Of course, but I wouldn’t bestow them on someone without their consent.” Which implies to me that he knows it’s a potential burden. That’s why Angela, in choosing to eat the egg, becomes a Christ-like figure with the very intentional walking on water imagery (as well as the false prophet split diopter shot of Lady Trieu earlier with her profile and Jesus in the background), which is to say she becomes a savior to mankind and a rectifier of injustice, but at great personal cost and burden.

She becomes the ultimate hero, doing what even Jon might not have the strength to do, given the choice.

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Master Virgo wrote:
December 17th, 2019, 5:08 pm
I think Lindelof got Manhattan much better than Snyder. This is what Berardinelli says about Snyder's version which I agree to some extent.

Billy Crudup (with a huge CGI assist) gives us the Dr. Manhattan Snyder apparently wants: a detached, emotionless enigma. In the comic book, Dr. Manhattan is a tragic, tortured figure, but not much of that comes across in the way Crudup portrays him
.
Respectfully — and I do respect Berardinelli, most of the time — I disagree. For me, the performance and CGI construct are better in Snyderland, while Manhattan as written and developed is better off with Lindelof & Co.. Although, I have to admit not by much; upon recent rewatch of the movie adaptation, I reexamined my previous enjoyment of many, many things, but not Doctor Manhattan. I think Snyder provides the cold, detached exterior and Crudup fills the nuance of its heart and soul with pretty deep sadness.

It’s also hard to compare directly because HBO’s version is very clearly playing with the ideas of appropriation in their portrayal, and thus what we’re seeing physically is not Doctor Manhattan from the graphic novel. As a nitpick, I would have preferred they use another voice for the
pre-Yahya Manhattan,
but that’s truly splitting hairs. I definitely think his performance is intentionally less icy and more human as the good Doctor
rediscovers his humanity. I mean, hell, as Adrian points out, he even laughs now.
TL;DR: It’s hardly comparable in any way other than technical, and even that is hard given the difference in intention.

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I think the show started great...

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Absolutely disagree that Zack's version of Dr Manhattan doesn't provide what the comics does (but I get some folks love to hate him). Him and Crudup did a beautiful job in every way, and yes, Crudup is the ultimate Dr Manhattan, by far.

If anything, the show is shaky on several elements, one being the very idea that Jon
was fated to be in love with Angela this entire time and somehow decides to become human for her?!
Heh, doesn't track with anything in the original comics imo. It's an interesting take mind you.

And as for canon, I'm sorry but it matters. This is against Moore's wishes, you can't just say "heh, fuck him, he doesn't get to decide what is canon or not, although, mm, he is the author".

Look, Hooded Justice for example, there's a panel of his eyes in the comics,
and it's not white paint around the eyes, it's clearly a white man.
They did something very interesting with it in the show (although it is on the nose like several other things) but it is a retcon for a show that Lindelof says considers the comics as canon.

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Lol.


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ugh, I really didn't like the final episode much. I'm deeply happy we have this wildly ambitious show and I loved much of it. I'm such a fan of Watchmen and The Leftovers (which is the greatest thing ever) that there was no way it could live up to that honestly

My problems
-Laurie’s sudden interest in arresting Veidt at the end, after years of being complicit in the lie, seemed to come out of nowhere. And there's nothing that suggest the world is ready to hear that lie. Definitely felt like a wrong character beat to me
-The morally grey themes from the comic book felt completely absent here. Especially in the final episode where everything felt very Hollywood. Lady Trieu ended up being more of a republic serial villain than anything else, just a bad guy who needed to be stopped. And let's not even talk about the 7K
-And the biggest of all is the treatment of Dr. Manhattan. I think they nailed his perception of time with his POV episode, but his integration in the story is ultimately a big disappointment knowing the full picture. To have this omnipotent future seeing god figure just inexplicably go along with this plot to destroy him, offering up no resistance to it AT ALL despite that fact that they make it seem like he doesn't want to die (as he sincerely loves Angela), doesn't make any sense to me. Why does Dr. Manhattan have to die? What prevents him from blowing the whole plot up? He literally just sits by and lets it all happen to him.

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