[SPOILER] Discussion/Speculation Thread
WelcomeMuffinMcFluffin wrote: ↑October 6th, 2020, 9:49 am
Caped Crusader wrote: ↑October 9th, 2020, 11:04 amWelcome
There's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm in a pincer movement.
So Sator comes to the docks with his wife (unknowingly) just in time for Sator to get ready to go in inverted with the information he will get from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the storage unit and inversion machine. But they also arrive with Sators wife, so where was she talking to Sator and being kicked on the floor? Cant be at two places at the same time if you never got inverted?
the problem I have is, because she is clearly not inverted in those scens, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit.
So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now being inverted in the car. Then forward again after she is rescued back to the docks to get inverted together with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet. But when they get captured after the shootout in the first place and brought back she is separated and brought in with Sator again on the other side of the container. So what version of her is going back out to the street with Sator and what version is saved through the inversion machine? seems like there are two versions of her the whole time.
Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?
hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
So Sator comes to the docks with his wife (unknowingly) just in time for Sator to get ready to go in inverted with the information he will get from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the storage unit and inversion machine. But they also arrive with Sators wife, so where was she talking to Sator and being kicked on the floor? Cant be at two places at the same time if you never got inverted?
the problem I have is, because she is clearly not inverted in those scens, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit.
So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now being inverted in the car. Then forward again after she is rescued back to the docks to get inverted together with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet. But when they get captured after the shootout in the first place and brought back she is separated and brought in with Sator again on the other side of the container. So what version of her is going back out to the street with Sator and what version is saved through the inversion machine? seems like there are two versions of her the whole time.
Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?
hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
Last edited by danevito on October 11th, 2020, 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Isn't Sator already inverted by the time Kat arrives? I'm not saying that makes anything easier to answer this or whatever, but I was just wondering.danevito wrote: ↑October 9th, 2020, 7:57 pmThere's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm.
So Sator comes to the docks with his wife just in time to get ready to go in inverted with the information he has from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the same docks storage.
the problem I have is with his wife, because she is clearly not inverted, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit "docks" inversion-machine, whatever you wanna call it.
So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now (inverted) and then forward again back to the docks to get inverted with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet.
Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?
hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
EDIT: I now realize I said this wrong, and forgot about the film moments leading up to everything. I was just thinking about how Kat looks across the way to see an inverted Sator in a gas mask inside of a car before she enters the room and he starts kicking her.
Last edited by MuffinMcFluffin on October 12th, 2020, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nobody's up for the challenge? Ok, let me try a theory.
No Sator was not inverted when he arrived. He waited until the last moment to invert when all the information was collected from his team who shadow spied on the protagonist team during the heist for the pincer movement to be successful.
Once its confirmed that the protagonist team is captured and on their way back to the docs he goes through the inversion machine himself. He then grabs his wife Kat and puts a bullet through her and interigates the protagonist from the oposite side of the window in the red blue container.
This is the complex part, Kat who isent inverted is put in to the same car as Sator and his driver who both are inverted. Because she is in contact and sitting in a car that is inverted she will be going back in time with them while physically not being inverted herself. She is simply a transported object. Once they switch car and leave her the time for her starts going forward again and she then needs to be saved before the car crashes.
The shootout is a trap where Sators team grab the protagonist and Kat and bring them back to the docks. This is where they give Sator the confirmation the pincer movement worked and he goes into the inversion machine.
Up until now, they had the upper hand of the whole operation but they didn't count on Niel calling for the backup team.
When the backup team who all are time cops arrive they change the outcome of the pincer movement and take back the control of this particular inversion machine at the docks. This means the past can be rewritten for an alternative future. In this future, they didn't arrive in time to save Kat from the inverted bullet, but enough to stop Sator from grabbing her again. So this time Sator goes back in time without her only to grab the algorithm from the protagonist.
JDW (the protagonist) tries to alter even this outcome and goes back inverted to stop him. only to fail and has to be rescued by the backup "cleanup" team. (again?)
/Fransisco
No Sator was not inverted when he arrived. He waited until the last moment to invert when all the information was collected from his team who shadow spied on the protagonist team during the heist for the pincer movement to be successful.
Once its confirmed that the protagonist team is captured and on their way back to the docs he goes through the inversion machine himself. He then grabs his wife Kat and puts a bullet through her and interigates the protagonist from the oposite side of the window in the red blue container.
This is the complex part, Kat who isent inverted is put in to the same car as Sator and his driver who both are inverted. Because she is in contact and sitting in a car that is inverted she will be going back in time with them while physically not being inverted herself. She is simply a transported object. Once they switch car and leave her the time for her starts going forward again and she then needs to be saved before the car crashes.
The shootout is a trap where Sators team grab the protagonist and Kat and bring them back to the docks. This is where they give Sator the confirmation the pincer movement worked and he goes into the inversion machine.
Up until now, they had the upper hand of the whole operation but they didn't count on Niel calling for the backup team.
When the backup team who all are time cops arrive they change the outcome of the pincer movement and take back the control of this particular inversion machine at the docks. This means the past can be rewritten for an alternative future. In this future, they didn't arrive in time to save Kat from the inverted bullet, but enough to stop Sator from grabbing her again. So this time Sator goes back in time without her only to grab the algorithm from the protagonist.
JDW (the protagonist) tries to alter even this outcome and goes back inverted to stop him. only to fail and has to be rescued by the backup "cleanup" team. (again?)
/Fransisco
Last edited by danevito on October 11th, 2020, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
The only explanation I have for this is:danevito wrote: ↑October 11th, 2020, 8:03 amNobody's up for the challenge?
No Sator was not inverted when he arrived. He waited until the last moment to invert when all the information was collected from his team who shadow spied on the protagonist team during the heist for the pincer movement to be successful.
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It's one of those things that's annoyingly left off-screen due to the elliptical structuring of the film, like
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there is only 1 version of Kat in the car chase.danevito wrote: ↑October 9th, 2020, 7:57 pmThere's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm in a pincer movement.
So Sator comes to the docks with his wife (unknowingly) just in time for Sator to get ready to go in inverted with the information he will get from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the storage unit and inversion machine. But they also arrive with Sators wife, so where was she talking to Sator and being kicked on the floor? Cant be at two places at the same time if you never got inverted?
the problem I have is, because she is clearly not inverted in those scens, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit.
So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now being inverted in the car. Then forward again after she is rescued back to the docks to get inverted together with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet. But when they get captured after the shootout in the first place and brought back she is separated and brought in with Sator again on the other side of the container. So what version of her is going back out to the street with Sator and what version is saved through the inversion machine? seems like there are two versions of her the whole time.
Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?
hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
once the 'present' Sator beat the shit out of Kat. even though Sator is in the 'present', he already received intel about the upcoming car chase because his future self has sent him documents about it.
the 'future' Sator, which is the Sator that went into the turnstile after Ives and co. arrives, then bring Kat into the car chase and the interrogate her. Of course from the 'future' inverted Sator POV - who is moving backwards in time - he exited the turnstile, invert shot Kat, interrogated the Protagonist and then went to the car chase.
the gas mask - especially when worn outside a shipping container or an closed environment full of inverted oxygen - is a good indication that someone is inverted. you can tell from their movement too with respect to the rest of the world.
One thing still bothering me is the scene where Kat
