Fuck it, I'll click on your post this once, in hope of reason and good faith.
But MGS2's mindset is not "war is bad."
Yes it is. Just like The Godfather's
mindset is 'mafia is bad'. But also: family is everything. Blood is everything. Blood is on everybody's hands. There's no good or bad. Love can save you. Hate can devour you.
Cycle of violence is a cycle for a reason, and not a finite line. etc. etc.
Every story known to man can be shortened down to a single sentence, and can be talked and analyzed for substance: for hours, days, months or years. The better the story, the bigger discussion that follows.
So yeah, why shy away from those three words: WAR. IS. BAD.
After all it's the word you hear at least a dozen times in MGS4 intro. Kojima
doesn't shy away from being the most obvious person in the room. What he also does the best is he takes what is obvious and turns it into something more, something substantial, layerific, narrative rich.
P2's storyline (which I got spoiled on, and decided to look into before I invested sixty dollars while I'm unemployed during a global pandemic) is very much a revenge storyline, which they've said from the beginning, and the savagery/characters exist to serve that message and show the brutality and unforgiving nature of revenge.
Let's see here... it is a revenge storyline. Right until it isn't.
But Neil said 'the first one is about LOVE and this one is about HATE, the creator said it himself!'
Easy now. First of all, yes, he said it. Second, watch the podcast from yesterday, where he says this, paraphrasing: 'I know I've said it, I know the second one is supposed to be about hate, but when you play it, you realize it's not. It's also about love. It's about all the complicated feelings in between but it's also about love.'
Click on this one if you're fuck all anyway but it won't spoil you on specific plot points.
See how it works? WAR IS BAD. IT'S A REVENGE STORY. MAFIA IS BAD.
Sure. But is it just
that? Is there more to it? Of course it is. There's so much more to it that has to be experienced and not judged based on the internet narrative. It has to be judged solely
on one's own personal experience while playing it.
The storyline in P2 tries its best to make you feel for all involved
See, this sort of line makes me just want to check out. It's like reading synopsis for Tolstoy's Ana Karenina
and spending hours deciphering her final decisions and her husband's decisions, based on that
discourse, and not based on actually reading the book
. Sorry but that is just wrong approach in my eyes, no matter how you put it, and I'm always against that notion.
but the core context of the basic story and characters is not really anything I haven't seen before in film or video games before.
So... just like the first game?
Similar, honestly, to how the first game works.
See, you do get it.
But the biggest draw of the first game is how the relationships and emotional connections of the characters draw players into a familiar concept with intense and complicated characters, differentiating it from the rest of survival/zombie games players are used to.
So... just like the second game?
Dude. On the last couple of pages I made a list of TOP 10 characters from Part II, and even added three for 'honorable mentions'. It's full of humanity on all sides of the story. Exactly how you described the first game, and perhaps even more so this time.
P2 tries to do the same thing
Again with the Leo Tolstoy thingie... You can't do this and expect people who've played the game to rationally respond because it's meaningless unless you play the game and THEN say the same thing.
but I think it backfires by making decisions throughout to subvert fan expectations and solicit visceral reactions rather than working cohesively to serve the story.
I'm going to quote Neil on this one: 'game doesn't judge and game doesn't take sides. You do that. And that is how it's supposed to be.
Abby's early game actions are meant to be divisive, and the game has to do so much leg work to try and fix the damage done by her in order to make the player care about her at all. For some it's successful and for some it's not.
Absolutely. Yes. You nailed it here. The game narrative is challenging you into accepting all of the sides of the story. But when was the last time that even happened in a mainstream video game? When were your beliefs challenged the last time? Perhaps in TLOU? Now take that choice and put it into almost every single character. That's growth right there. Controversy, emotional roller coaster, lot of play hours spent, but it challenges your perception of what should and shouldn't be right, or wrong.
The issue arises when a story's themes become the only thing driving the story/characters rather than the consistency and strength of the writing of said characters (Kojima's games ride this line and do this too).
Leo Tolstoy x3. But I'll add more onto this one: they don't. That's the point. Many times you may think they do, but they absolutely don't. And especially during the final hour of the game, which is the tipping point that negates this notion.
My insistence in responding here stems solely from the hypocrisy of those who love this game, acting just as rudely and insensitive as the annoying fans who are vocal online about their dislike for it.
Ah, the legendary 'this is bad but they are bad too!' LET'S ALL JUST YELL IN CAPS TO FEEL BETTER. I believe it comes from frustration, on both sides. There's no meet me in the middle, because one side played the game and liked the game, while other won't even hear it. Ideal meet me in the middle would be: let's all play the game and then discuss the game.
Rate it 5/10, or 7/19, or 10/10, I. DON'T. CARE. Rate it 0/10... but only after you've played it.
Something like this:
Vader has responded with nothing but friendly, relevant remarks the entire time (as have many fans of the game). But somewhere it seems like every person glowing over the game has to make the self-righteous move of bringing political ideologies into the discussion (and I'm someone who *loves* talking politics).
Don't victimize yourself. You can take it, you're a big boy. Otherwise you wouldn't constantly push the same reasonings over and over again.
And you cannot really not talk political ideologies when the game has them, and has them plenty. Vague side (but central) character spoiler:
And that's just one of many examples of various socio-political ideologies within the game that are way beyond the start of discussion here: it's a revenge story.
Anyone that knows me or follows me anywhere knows of my progressive and left-leaning and my radical change from my conservative upbringing, so it's insulting to have my (and many other peoples') distaste for a plot direction be reduced to us wanting a "safe bubble zone" or showing "misogyny and prejudice." This kind of dialogue is used repeatedly, by the same kinds of people, in such a repeatedly sarcastic and patronizing manner, and it's unfair and, frankly, embarrassing to the community similar the actual minority of misogynists shouting into the void. Calling people trolls or misogynists simply because they're angry, worried, concerned, or undecided about the game is only going to make those people more hardened and against the idea of even trying it.
That's good. Good for you. I believe that is the only way to live in this world personally. Why are you feeling like you were being called out on those specific points though? Beats me. I will, however, always call out the real misogynists, trolls and bigots of this world. Always. Won't get the fluff talk from me there. Just don't feel called out on that one, why would you, when you said it all the best yourself.
I'm genuinely trying to explain the frustration and unavoidable expectations that trying and playing this game has on every level.
I believe you do. But don't expect the emotions will change, on both sides, until you:
a) play the game
b) think about the game
c) rate the game
And fucking rate it with honesty, I mean, be it 0, 5, or 10 out of 10.
However, and I repeat myself here, I already said it but you didn't want to listen, so parhaps listen now: as long as you're here and as long as you're disappointed in the game without paying the bucks (and I understand 60 dollars is too much nowadays)... if you continue engaging in this whole 'Part II is disappointment to the fans' story... You will never, ever, give it a fair shot. Not a chance. You have preconditioned yourself into hating it, like many YouTubers, and the only way to remove yourself from it is to remove yourself from it. Buy it and play it when you're done thinking what should've been and start thinking the opposite. How do I play this and marinate... as it goes?
The notion that Naughty Dog and all of the creators who are responsible for existence of these characters are somehow 'hating their fans' and 'hating these characters' and 'don't know what's best for them' is ridiculous. Again, pointing at the yesterday's lengthy but essential podcast. It's just silly.
And that's what you'll get from me on this matter.
𝑰 𝒘𝒂𝒏𝒕𝒆𝒅 𝒕𝒐 𝒔𝒉𝒐𝒐𝒕 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒓𝒆𝒂𝒍 𝒅𝒆𝒔𝒆𝒓𝒕. 𝑻𝒉𝒆𝒚 𝒅𝒊𝒅𝒏'𝒕 𝒔𝒉𝒐𝒐𝒕 𝑱𝒂𝒘𝒔 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒔𝒘𝒊𝒎𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒑𝒐𝒐𝒍.
- 𝑫𝒆𝒏𝒊𝒔 𝑽𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒖𝒗𝒆