The Last of Us - It can't be for nothing (Part II announced)

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Michaelf2225 wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:11 pm
Bacon wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 3:54 pm
m4st4 wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 11:27 am
Edit: Druckmann just confirmed MGS2 as an inspiration. Hell yeah.
Of course it is. MGS2's inspiration is far-reaching and widespread, let alone how much this game follows in its footsteps and stumbles in ways MGS2 never did.
MGS2 except Raiden brutally murders Solid Snake in front of Otacon, and you play as Raiden chasing down Otacon for the second half of the game, resulting in EE and Olga (who's pregnant) getting shanked and killed in the on-going skirmish, and then in the final fight, Otacon spares you because "revenge is bad" lol.
keep trolling :twothumbsup:

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Did he just quote me even though I can't see his posts unless I click? Good. :D

Here's more S-Legend:


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TIL continuing a comparison that the creator of this game makes and explaining why I find it applicable but less successful is trolling. Good to know for the future.

And m4 legit foe'd me on the entire website over me expressing my disinterest/dislike for what happens in a video game? lmao

Hope he doesn't find out how much Vader dislikes Joker.

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Bacon wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:03 am
TIL continuing a comparison that the creator of this game makes and explaining why I find it applicable but less successful is trolling. Good to know for the future.

And m4 legit foe'd me on the entire website over me expressing my disinterest/dislike for what happens in a video game? lmao

Hope he doesn't find out how much Vader dislikes Joker.
He foe’d you because you made your final opinion on a game you haven’t played based on leaks. That and you keep repeating yourself. Can’t blame him for not wanting to see the nonsense tbh.

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Bacon wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:03 am
TIL continuing a comparison that the creator of this game makes and explaining why I find it applicable but less successful is trolling. Good to know for the future.

And m4 legit foe'd me on the entire website over me expressing my disinterest/dislike for what happens in a video game? lmao

Hope he doesn't find out how much Vader dislikes Joker.
If you asked me a month ago if The Last of Us II should exist, I would say "probably not." If you asked me now, I would tell you it is the most powerful emotional experience I have had in any game. I finished it today and my heart is on the floor. Moreover, it's something you could only experience, in this way, while playing a game. If it connects with you, it's really something special.

Play it with an open mind and see what happens. If not for the fact critics love it, then maybe for the fact we're all friends here and we all love it. We don't have agendas. We just like it. Maybe it will pleasantly surprise you, maybe it won't, but you won't know until you actually try it.


-Vader

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Bacon wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:03 am
TIL continuing a comparison that the creator of this game makes and explaining why I find it applicable but less successful is trolling. Good to know for the future.

And m4 legit foe'd me on the entire website over me expressing my disinterest/dislike for what happens in a video game? lmao

Hope he doesn't find out how much Vader dislikes Joker.
Part II is merely about "revenge is bad" just as much as MGS2 is merely about "war is bad". You knew war is bad before MGS2. You knew it before MGS3. You knew it before MGS4. You knew it before MGS5. Still, you surrendered to the very obvious manipulations and forced melodrama of all those games and were blown away precisely because of the cathartic way they immerse you into very particular perspectives. These games turn the knowledge of "war is bad" into a first-hand, believeable, relatable experience and I'd even say part of that effect is that they explain war in a dissonant way - both as something bad and rational at the same time. Until it isn't.

So why is it so hard to accept that P2 is doing the same and why not tell us the story of why you even read the leaks in the first place?

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Neil says it the best in the podcast I posted on the last page, day of the leaks was the worst day of his life. To see these context-less spoilers out there and to have to say, and for two months - wait and see, wait and see, there's so much more to this, was heartbraking for the entire team. He even acknowledges that the perception was accurate based on just those couple of cutscenes ('I'd hate it myself without knowing the rest'). Nobody loves and understands these characters more than him, Ashley and Troy. Nobody. After all they created them and embodied them and feel very protective. Baker even tears up just talking about particular sequences they shot (and not just the one that was leaked). Troy and Neil spent hours arguing about tiny details of what everybody is supposed to say, feel, think and even where to stand and how to move, to tell this story.

And now you have videos like PewDiePie's feels are the feels of all the gamers right now. And Druckmann pretends he doesn't understand TLOU. Not even kidding, these types of clickbaity, trashy thumbnails that occassionaly show on my feed. Pew yesterday had an event type of stream saying (you guys can all click this now:
Event upcoming: 6 hours of Abby, let's get this over with, something like that.
He has conditioned himself into hating this, he is not giving it a slight chance, he is constantly checking out stream comments that are nothing but hateful. And yet, whatever he says (and I'm sure he' ll still trash it no matter what), at least he's playing the damn game. The flock who is living this toxic culture of preconditioned hating, opinionated masses who think reading and spoiling equals playing and experiencing the game as a primary solo experience - they are in the wrong.

Frankly, after finishing the game, listening the podcast, currently having a second go at it, and knowing what the spoiler leaks were? It's all so silly. That's such a tiny fraction of the game. And there's so much more to get from it while playing. Not to mention from specific beloved characters. You guys know what I mean. Some of the best scenes.

The hated character in question? Easily one of ND's best.

But...
... she's also a woman, she's jacked, she's masculine... And she kills your masculine white protag from the first game. Wow, how will you ever cope. How can you ever give this a chance. Why is this mainstream game risking it all? Why is art suddenly risky?? I want my safe bubble zone.
I wonder if misogyny and prejudice that happened right before Lost Legacy as well had anything to do with so much hate regarding that character. I wonder. 🤔

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Vader sorry, I edited so much that this has to be a new post, regarding the finale.
How are you holding up after THAT duel?

Also congrats on finishing the game.

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prince0gotham wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 2:21 am
Bacon wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:03 am
TIL continuing a comparison that the creator of this game makes and explaining why I find it applicable but less successful is trolling. Good to know for the future.

And m4 legit foe'd me on the entire website over me expressing my disinterest/dislike for what happens in a video game? lmao

Hope he doesn't find out how much Vader dislikes Joker.
Part II is merely about "revenge is bad" just as much as MGS2 is merely about "war is bad". You knew war is bad before MGS2. You knew it before MGS3. You knew it before MGS4. You knew it before MGS5. Still, you surrendered to the very obvious manipulations and forced melodrama of all those games and were blown away precisely because of the cathartic way they immerse you into very particular perspectives. These games turn the knowledge of "war is bad" into a first-hand, believeable, relatable experience and I'd even say part of that effect is that they explain war in a dissonant way - both as something bad and rational at the same time. Until it isn't.

So why is it so hard to accept that P2 is doing the same and why not tell us the story of why you even read the leaks in the first place?
Screw it, spoiler tagging all this (not many spoilers but some):
But MGS2's mindset is not "war is bad." The themes central to the story (even reading a basic synopsis) are more unique and intriguing than "war is bad" to a point that the story is literally known for being ahead of its time and prophetic. P2's storyline (which I got spoiled on, and decided to look into before I invested sixty dollars while I'm unemployed during a global pandemic) is very much a revenge storyline, which they've said from the beginning, and the savagery/characters exist to serve that message and show the brutality and unforgiving nature of revenge. The storyline in P2 tries its best to make you feel for all involved, but the core context of the basic story and characters is not really anything I haven't seen before in film or video games before. Similar, honestly, to how the first game works. But the biggest draw of the first game is how the relationships and emotional connections of the characters draw players into a familiar concept with intense and complicated characters, differentiating it from the rest of survival/zombie games players are used to.

P2 tries to do the same thing, but I think it backfires by making decisions throughout to subvert fan expectations and solicit visceral reactions rather than working cohesively to serve the story. Abby's early game actions are meant to be divisive, and the game has to do so much leg work to try and fix the damage done by her in order to make the player care about her at all. For some it's successful and for some it's not. The issue arises when a story's themes become the only thing driving the story/characters rather than the consistency and strength of the writing of said characters (Kojima's games ride this line and do this too). If the characters act inconsistently or seem like they're only making decisions to follow an established "theme," it makes the story less engaging. The original did not have this issue.
My insistence in responding here stems solely from the hypocrisy of those who love this game, acting just as rudely and insensitive as the annoying fans who are vocal online about their dislike for it. Vader has responded with nothing but friendly, relevant remarks the entire time (as have many fans of the game). But somewhere it seems like every person glowing over the game has to make the self-righteous move of bringing political ideologies into the discussion (and I'm someone who *loves* talking politics).

Anyone that knows me or follows me anywhere knows of my progressive and left-leaning and my radical change from my conservative upbringing, so it's insulting to have my (and many other peoples') distaste for a plot direction be reduced to us wanting a "safe bubble zone" or showing "misogyny and prejudice." This kind of dialogue is used repeatedly, by the same kinds of people, in such a repeatedly sarcastic and patronizing manner, and it's unfair and, frankly, embarrassing to the community similar the actual minority of misogynists shouting into the void. Calling people trolls or misogynists simply because they're angry, worried, concerned, or undecided about the game is only going to make those people more hardened and against the idea of even trying it. If the people who play it are this toxic about loving it, what happens if we play it and don't like it for the same reasons we had initial concerns? It won't matter. The same toxic lovers of the game will be saying the same things they are about the people currently playing it right now and not connecting with it.

Do I intend to play this? I actually do once the hype dies down (as I said before), and I can get it for cheaper without supporting ND (both for their mistreatment of employees and disregard for fans). I'm currently in a situation where $60 is a hefty investment I have to weigh carefully about making, so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to have looked into my decision when I already got spoiled in the first place.

The same group of people I'm talking about may throw this aside as me "trolling," but I'm genuinely trying to explain the frustration and unavoidable expectations that trying and playing this game has on every level.

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The irony about all of this is that the perhaps biggest achievement of the game is how realistically it follows the moment-to-moment minutia of escalation between groups of people and how individuals turn small, personal conflicts and involve other, innocent individuals until the small conflicts become big. That's its actual core, the actual almost -empirical- analysis and commentary, while revenge is just the dynamic that gets this going on the small scale.

This is also exactly what has been happening within the discourse of the game and both sides have its zealots and everything, and obviously you don't need to be a biggot to dislike the direction of the plot. Frankly I think the bigger thing behind all this is just general fan entitlement - back when TDKR was happening certain Batman fans were flipping out over the idea that Batman would evvvver consider giving up on being Batman (just think about it - the most selfless man chooses to lead a happy life away from sacrifice - the insult!), among various other similar complaints. And every Kojima game does this same thing as you just admitted - it sifts through fans looking for those who'll go along with the autopsy of their own relationship with the material, through manipulation after manipulation, until they're exhausted and just ready and prepared to believe say how crushing it is for BB to fight The Boss at the end of 3.

Precisely that though is why I can't understand why you're not even allowing the possibility that this might work like we're saying that it does. Merely because other people generalize why one wouldn't like it? You DO know that that's at least partially true though, right? And that a good deal of those people about which that is true ARE a driving force behind the controversy?

But as I said, I think that the real problem is that mostly a lot of fans of anything consider their favorite texts as "sacred" in a particular way, while that's often the very idea that the best texts (like this game) attempt to contest. My verdict after finishing the game is that that Part 2 absolutely destroys a certain image of sacredness of Part 1 while always remaining respectful and even full of love for the
kind of person Joel was then and now, or Ellie for that matter. It's just the kind of love one might experience in a complicated relationship towards a parent or relative. Awkward. Painful. Uneasy. Conflicted. But always strong.

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