i dont really know what is so hard to understand about the stakes in Tenet, if anything its as/or even clearer than in Dunkirk, in the end its about "saving the world", stakes dont get much higher and simpler than that, and and i call it experimental because its pretty rare for a movie to have such a breakneck pace, usually big blockbusters take a bit more time and slow down for the audience, Tenet only gives you the answers that the protagonist gets, and when he gets them, its also pretty rare for the movie not to give you a sob story of why you should care about the characters, Kat does have a sad story to share, but its not overdone, she doesnt cry into our protagonists shoulders, and Neil and JDW dont need anything else than their charisma for me to care about them, it seems to be a crime not to have an obvious character arc, but the arcs are there for the protagonist, for Kat, and i would argue for Neil aswell, subtle but present, i mean no one complained that Thomas Wake didnt change a bit form start to end in The lighthouse, or that the plot was almost non existant, (at least people who know their stuff about cinema) because we recognize that the film chose not to go to those places in favour of atmosphere, characterization and themes.Vader182 wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 4:01 amWhich experimentations with narrative do you think make Tenet unique?Nicolaslabra wrote: ↑March 25th, 2021, 6:46 pmok`ive seen it 3 times by now, im ready to elaborate a bit more on why i disagree with the criticisms of the film, mostly. I`ll use music as an example, its a very old and more mature medium than film, wich is only about 100 years old, Chris has mentioned this, in a couple of interviews he states that he firmly believes that we`ve just scratched the surface of what is possible with film and i cannot agree more, but theres a catch, being a recent artistic medium, experimentation is still very much frowned upon, unlike music where the specialized press can recognize experimentation for what it is and what it means to go into that path, Kid A for example, an incredible album and an instant classic threading new ground in the sonic landscapes it brought to life, it sacrifices catchy melodies and inmediate lyrics in favour of frantic rythms, harmony and texture, when you go all out in one of those aspects, you can be forgiven for cutting down the complexity in another, in part because creating a piece thats experimental in every single way would result in something profoundly unlistenable, so if i havent lost you with this clunky analogy im making heres my point, Nolan`s approach with his latest 2 films has been one of minimalism in characterization, but heavy experimentation in narrative, a compromise wich seems to bother film critics because, they tend to be very academic when it comes to their profession, its like a photography student when they see a photo and label it bad or unpolished because it doesnt comply with the rule of thirds, or some of my classmates at film school when they saw a shot that didnt have 3 point lighting and said it wasnt right, or that it wasnt cinematic, in the same vein a film isnt bad because its characterization is minimalistic, or its narrative simple, but this overly academic approach is limiting and lacks nuance, Tenet will be remembered way more fondly in the years to come, like the rest of his films, i think Chris is in a way, daring more filmmakers to be bold, to step on his shoulders and go even crazier than him, thats why he makes mainstream films in the way that he does them.
Tenet is great, but I ask because it mostly seems like an attempt to marry experiential storytelling (Dunkirk/Gravity/Fury Road) with complex labyrinthian plotting (Memento, Inception, Le Carre)
Why this perhaps doesn't work for some is because in Dunkirk the stakes are clear and relatable. We instantly empathize with the "minimalist" characters because we're also afraid of fire, or drowning, or things swooping in outside our field of vision, unseen enemies, etc. In Tenet, it's harder to instantly empathize with a minimalist character when the stakes and context is a lot more complex when we don't know what his actions represent within that context.
I'm not sure that alone qualifies it as experimental in a way that would conflict with audiences who love movies like plenty of more experimental movies, so I'm curious what angle you're coming from.
-Vader
Tenet User Reviews/Reactions [Possible SPOILERS]
Look thats a valid opinion of course, but its a terrible argument, back to the music analogy, your position would equate to "experimental music, bla bla bla all these artsy fartsy excuses people make for musicians when they make a bad album"LelekPL wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 7:30 amI didn't relate to characters in Dunkirk whatsoever. It's just not a good approach to take in storytelling in general. You can say "it's experimental" , "it's bla bla bla" and all these artsy fartsy excuses people tend to make for "acclaimed" directors when they make a bad film but if it leaves the audience cold, it just doesn't work... for those people, obviously. I guess the majority still likes those two films based on the numbers (I even like Tenet but rather despite its characters' blandness rather than because of it).
see what i mean ? you can think that, but it doesnt make a case for it does it
a lot of people said the same about blade runner back in the day, many of them, members of the specialized press, but time turned the tables, i postulate that time will do something similar for Tenet, im not saying it will have such a cultural impact, i mean blade runner is an all time classic, but this whole Tenet is crap thing, it wont stick.
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Tenet is not bad a film although if you consider it as such then that’s a different story. It’s not a good approach to storytelling according to your "general" standards but the doesn't mean the movie isn't working completely in terms of its structure. This idea of "I didn’t relate to characters" can become a gray area if you ask me. For example: I haven’t related to different characters in the past that I do consider to be well done. So that varies, in my opinion.LelekPL wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 7:30 amI didn't relate to characters in Dunkirk whatsoever. It's just not a good approach to take in storytelling in general. You can say "it's experimental" , "it's bla bla bla" and all these artsy fartsy excuses people tend to make for "acclaimed" directors when they make a bad film but if it leaves the audience cold, it just doesn't work... for those people, obviously. I guess the majority still likes those two films based on the numbers (I even like Tenet but rather despite its characters' blandness rather than because of it).
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The idea of experimentation in Tenet is mostly Time as obvious as it may seem. The problem is that some people don’t necessarily think about it too profoundly like Nolan does but they do see more things like drowning, fire, etc. (with sad and tragic examples unfortunately) which they do consider to reflect on perhaps more regularly.Vader182 wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 4:01 am
Which experimentations with narrative do you think make Tenet unique?
Tenet is great, but I ask because it mostly seems like an attempt to marry experiential storytelling (Dunkirk/Gravity/Fury Road) with complex labyrinthian plotting (Memento, Inception, Le Carre)
Why this perhaps doesn't work for some is because in Dunkirk the stakes are clear and relatable. We instantly empathize with the "minimalist" characters because we're also afraid of fire, or drowning, or things swooping in outside our field of vision, unseen enemies, etc. In Tenet, it's harder to instantly empathize with a minimalist character when the stakes and context is a lot more complex when we don't know what his actions represent within that context.
I'm not sure that alone qualifies it as experimental in a way that would conflict with audiences who love movies like plenty of more experimental movies, so I'm curious what angle you're coming from.
-Vader
You might say, we are surrounded by time but this being such an abstract concept makes it a bit more alienating in a movie almost entirely driven by it maybe. And you could also say well he has used time before like in inception and interstellar and the audience isn't completely lost or estranged with them which is true but those films have more focused recognizable elements like a father's love and so on. Tenet throw us in a world with little information where time is running out so we are basically the protagonist and it makes me think if that’s why it's the only "name" we get. Tenet feels (don't know if it was intentional) to me sort of meta as well because of the line Neil says at the end "The world will never know what could happen. And even if they did, they wouldn't care. Because no one cares about the bomb that didn't go off. Only the one that did."
That's not really different from what I said. I even said that I like Tenet despite its character issues. The music and certain action scenes are thrilling and fascinating (Opera opening and Norway especially, the finale is TERRIBLE) and the acting despite the writing is still really strong thanks to JDW's charisma and Neil's mystery. And then there's also the fascinating concept based in part on real physics that hasn't been relly established in movies before. All this is able to grab your attention but the character stuff just doesn't work and I completely understand someone who has trouble engaging with this film because...Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 9:58 pmTenet is not bad a film although if you consider it as such then that’s a different story. It’s not a good approach to storytelling according to your "general" standards but the doesn't mean the movie isn't working completely in terms of its structure. This idea of "I didn’t relate to characters" can become a gray area if you ask me. For example: I haven’t related to different characters in the past that I do consider to be well done. So that varies, in my opinion.LelekPL wrote: ↑March 27th, 2021, 7:30 amI didn't relate to characters in Dunkirk whatsoever. It's just not a good approach to take in storytelling in general. You can say "it's experimental" , "it's bla bla bla" and all these artsy fartsy excuses people tend to make for "acclaimed" directors when they make a bad film but if it leaves the audience cold, it just doesn't work... for those people, obviously. I guess the majority still likes those two films based on the numbers (I even like Tenet but rather despite its characters' blandness rather than because of it).
Dunkirk is a different story, I couldn't care less about it at. If you want to make an excuse it tried to be a war-horror or whatever, I will send you to 2016's Wołyń - that's a war horror movie where you do not have to care about the characters but you still feel fear and dread. With Dunkirk I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing. It has great IMAX plane shots and that's it. Other than that it was cold, it was emotionless, it was boring.
Am I the only one who thinks the final set piece is TERRIFIC! (I do not find it difficult to follow...in fact, I find it super easy to follow, and it is top-tier Nolan.)
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Except the finale is not “TERRIBLE" (an exaggeration like a lot of people do calling some things that) but again, it’s for you. I’m not saying there is characterization to a great degree in this film but to say character stuff doesn’t entirely work varies a lot from person to person. The point of Tenet in this regard is different. He has done more emphasized character work in the past quite well so no one can't really tell me "oh he just messed it up with this one" because it seems to me this was his intention of giving no background for them and so on. But it doesn’t mean this is overall wrong either because there are subtle moments to it. Nonetheless, I can understand some people's alienation to it but that doesn’t mean it makes me feel the same.LelekPL wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:01 amThat's not really different from what I said. I even said that I like Tenet despite its character issues. The music and certain action scenes are thrilling and fascinating (Opera opening and Norway especially, the finale is TERRIBLE) and the acting despite the writing is still really strong thanks to JDW's charisma and Neil's mystery. And then there's also the fascinating concept based in part on real physics that hasn't been relly established in movies before. All this is able to grab your attention but the character stuff just doesn't work and I completely understand someone who has trouble engaging with this film because...
Dunkirk is a different story, I couldn't care less about it at. If you want to make an excuse it tried to be a war-horror or whatever, I will send you to 2016's Wołyń - that's a war horror movie where you do not have to care about the characters but you still feel fear and dread. With Dunkirk I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing. It has great IMAX plane shots and that's it. Other than that it was cold, it was emotionless, it was boring.
And that would mean I have to find 2016's Wołyń as profound in terms of "horror" as you did perhaps making me think Dunkirk deserves less credit or something like that? If Dunkirk did nothing for you and you found it overall boring then that’s fine but don’t act like this is irrefutable and anyone saying otherwise is just making excuses for the movie. Dunkirk is a war-horror type and it's not an excuse; the movie shows it. After all, you did say " With Dunkirk I felt nothing" but to me is the contrary and that’s it.
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There are a lot of people who loved the ending even more than the other action scenes in the film so yeah, you are not alone in that. I loved it. It's just a bizarre kind of scene too because a sort of war scenario like that usually happens in a different way so some people become estranged to it perhaps.A Borges man wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:22 amAm I the only one who thinks the final set piece is TERRIFIC! (I do not find it difficult to follow...in fact, I find it super easy to follow, and it is top-tier Nolan.)
You are right but then again, the author's intent doesn't necessarily make the work good either. Just because he had an idea to test, it doesn't mean that idea itself was good for the audience. Remember such argumentation works both ways: "just because you as an individual recipient don't think it's good, it doesn't actually make it good" and "just because the artist thinks it's good, it doesn't actually make it good". His intent is almost irrelevant once the film reaches the audience. What matters then is the reception itself.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amThe point of Tenet in this regard is different. He has done more emphasized character work in the past quite well so no one can't really tell me "oh he just messed it up with this one" because it seems to me this was his intention of giving no background for them and so on. But it doesn’t mean this is overall wrong either because there are subtle moments to it.
No. I was just making my opinion clear, just as you were doing. Well... to be fair I also gave you a recommendation for a great movie as wellParadoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amAnd that would mean I have to find 2016's Wołyń as profound in terms of "horror" as you did perhaps making me think Dunkirk deserves less credit or something like that?
I'm not. Just sharing my POV.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amIf Dunkirk did nothing for you and you found it overall boring then that’s fine but don’t act like this is irrefutable and anyone saying otherwise is just making excuses for the movie.
Obviously. These are all opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amWith Dunkirk I felt nothing" but to me is the contrary and that’s it.
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I don’t think that is completely true. If an author's intent was indeed almost (I know you said this) irrelevant once it reaches the audience and all that matters is reception then some movies that were belittled in the past wouldn't have changed, when it comes to appreciation, over time and hadn't had become more important now. That is not to say I’m making a case the same will happen with Tenet but you get the objective of the aforementioned. It works both ways; you are right, but doesn’t make it an incompetent work either which is what I mean if certain folks are coming to say "it’s bad" or "mediocre" (this is an example, not implying you said those things). I don’t like Gaspar Noe's Climax but I would never say it’s bad or mediocre piece of cinema.LelekPL wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 10:49 amYou are right but then again, the author's intent doesn't necessarily make the work good either. Just because he had an idea to test, it doesn't mean that idea itself was good for the audience. Remember such argumentation works both ways: "just because you as an individual recipient don't think it's good, it doesn't actually make it good" and "just because the artist thinks it's good, it doesn't actually make it good". His intent is almost irrelevant once the film reaches the audience. What matters then is the reception itself.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amThe point of Tenet in this regard is different. He has done more emphasized character work in the past quite well so no one can't really tell me "oh he just messed it up with this one" because it seems to me this was his intention of giving no background for them and so on. But it doesn’t mean this is overall wrong either because there are subtle moments to it.
No. I was just making my opinion clear, just as you were doing. Well... to be fair I also gave you a recommendation for a great movie as wellParadoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amAnd that would mean I have to find 2016's Wołyń as profound in terms of "horror" as you did perhaps making me think Dunkirk deserves less credit or something like that?
I'm not. Just sharing my POV.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amIf Dunkirk did nothing for you and you found it overall boring then that’s fine but don’t act like this is irrefutable and anyone saying otherwise is just making excuses for the movie.
Obviously. These are all opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.Paradoxicalparabola wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:34 amWith Dunkirk I felt nothing" but to me is the contrary and that’s it.
Yes, they are opinions, but maybe it’s better not to tell people "if you want to make an excuse" as if theirs are invalid because that doesn’t seem like trying to give just an opinion then.
The reception for Tenet was not the same as his other recent projects but it wasn’t negative or entirely mixed overall either. At the very least it was favorable.
