[SPOILER] Discussion/Speculation Thread

An original action espionage film releasing in IMAX on August 12, 2020
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TENET wrote:
October 7th, 2020, 5:33 pm
I haven’t been to the forums in a while and it’s been a month since I saw the movie.

I still have a lot of questions, but (a quite simple) one is nagging me:
In the third act battle, how does reversed Neil enter the tunnel to open the door for the Protagonist with the tunnel blocked from the trip mine? Is the turn machine underground as well?
The turnstile is in an entirely different area, as far as I could tell. It's in that little bowl area with the structure thingy... I can't think about what it looks like anymore without a photo haha, but I don't think they are in similar places.

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MuffinMcFluffin wrote:
October 6th, 2020, 9:49 am
Caped Crusader wrote:
October 6th, 2020, 9:33 am
MuffinMcFluffin wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 1:44 pm

Thanks, right I forgot to include that last part in my question, in that why do they carry along with a plan that could look like something the terrorists would do? It appears, as you said, they were corrupt in a way.

I'm guessing this is somewhat reflected in the Oslo Freeport heist planning with the plane, and why Protag was questioning Mahir about whether there would be casualties despite having the plane crash be less of a distraction than the dropped gold bars. They use it all as a diversion to get something else they want, but if it's at the cost of human life then Protag isn't all for that, as that nearly had happened in the opening scene.

My other question within (which may be irrelevant) is why are the terrorists there? Other than to simply terrorize, it doesn't seem like they have any rooting interest in either the Plutonium-241 or the Well Dressed Man.
By my interpretation there were three teams in Opera House also confirmed by Neil.
1)Ukrainian Gov. or Real SWAT
2)The Protagonist
3)Sator
First two teams were sent by Ukrainian Gov.
Real SWAT to blow up the place so it will look like act done by terrorists also some terrorists who had masks just to create chaos.
The Protagonist who was with fake SWAT which was assigned the task of extracting the VIP that's why Protag says "the siege is blind for them to vanish you"
Sator's men were also there may be some terrorists or infiltrating either of SWATs to get that package.
Thanks, I have to watch it with that in mind. Definitely didn't think of the real S.W.A.T. as fake S.W.A.T., that's for sure haha.
Welcome :thumbup:

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Caped Crusader wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 11:04 am
MuffinMcFluffin wrote:
October 6th, 2020, 9:49 am
Caped Crusader wrote:
October 6th, 2020, 9:33 am
By my interpretation there were three teams in Opera House also confirmed by Neil.
1)Ukrainian Gov. or Real SWAT
2)The Protagonist
3)Sator
First two teams were sent by Ukrainian Gov.
Real SWAT to blow up the place so it will look like act done by terrorists also some terrorists who had masks just to create chaos.
The Protagonist who was with fake SWAT which was assigned the task of extracting the VIP that's why Protag says "the siege is blind for them to vanish you"
Sator's men were also there may be some terrorists or infiltrating either of SWATs to get that package.
Thanks, I have to watch it with that in mind. Definitely didn't think of the real S.W.A.T. as fake S.W.A.T., that's for sure haha.
Welcome :thumbup:
Oh gosh, I totally misread what you posted the first time. I thought you were saying something like "What you think of as the real S.W.A.T. is actually just fake S.W.A.T." Nevermind, I'm good. The first time I mentioned this scenario, I was already calling Protag as part of the fake S.W.A.T. group.

I have no idea where my head was at the first time I read your post.

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There's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm in a pincer movement.

So Sator comes to the docks with his wife (unknowingly) just in time for Sator to get ready to go in inverted with the information he will get from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the storage unit and inversion machine. But they also arrive with Sators wife, so where was she talking to Sator and being kicked on the floor? Cant be at two places at the same time if you never got inverted?

the problem I have is, because she is clearly not inverted in those scens, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit.

So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now being inverted in the car. Then forward again after she is rescued back to the docks to get inverted together with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet. But when they get captured after the shootout in the first place and brought back she is separated and brought in with Sator again on the other side of the container. So what version of her is going back out to the street with Sator and what version is saved through the inversion machine? seems like there are two versions of her the whole time.

Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?

hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
Last edited by danevito on October 11th, 2020, 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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danevito wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 7:57 pm
There's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm.

So Sator comes to the docks with his wife just in time to get ready to go in inverted with the information he has from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the same docks storage.

the problem I have is with his wife, because she is clearly not inverted, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit "docks" inversion-machine, whatever you wanna call it.

So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now (inverted) and then forward again back to the docks to get inverted with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet.

Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?

hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
Isn't Sator already inverted by the time Kat arrives? I'm not saying that makes anything easier to answer this or whatever, but I was just wondering.

EDIT: I now realize I said this wrong, and forgot about the film moments leading up to everything. I was just thinking about how Kat looks across the way to see an inverted Sator in a gas mask inside of a car before she enters the room and he starts kicking her.
Last edited by MuffinMcFluffin on October 12th, 2020, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nobody's up for the challenge? Ok, let me try a theory.

No Sator was not inverted when he arrived. He waited until the last moment to invert when all the information was collected from his team who shadow spied on the protagonist team during the heist for the pincer movement to be successful.

Once its confirmed that the protagonist team is captured and on their way back to the docs he goes through the inversion machine himself. He then grabs his wife Kat and puts a bullet through her and interigates the protagonist from the oposite side of the window in the red blue container.

This is the complex part, Kat who isent inverted is put in to the same car as Sator and his driver who both are inverted. Because she is in contact and sitting in a car that is inverted she will be going back in time with them while physically not being inverted herself. She is simply a transported object. Once they switch car and leave her the time for her starts going forward again and she then needs to be saved before the car crashes.

The shootout is a trap where Sators team grab the protagonist and Kat and bring them back to the docks. This is where they give Sator the confirmation the pincer movement worked and he goes into the inversion machine.

Up until now, they had the upper hand of the whole operation but they didn't count on Niel calling for the backup team.

When the backup team who all are time cops arrive they change the outcome of the pincer movement and take back the control of this particular inversion machine at the docks. This means the past can be rewritten for an alternative future. In this future, they didn't arrive in time to save Kat from the inverted bullet, but enough to stop Sator from grabbing her again. So this time Sator goes back in time without her only to grab the algorithm from the protagonist.

JDW (the protagonist) tries to alter even this outcome and goes back inverted to stop him. only to fail and has to be rescued by the backup "cleanup" team. (again?)

/Fransisco
Last edited by danevito on October 11th, 2020, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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danevito wrote:
October 11th, 2020, 8:03 am
Nobody's up for the challenge?

No Sator was not inverted when he arrived. He waited until the last moment to invert when all the information was collected from his team who shadow spied on the protagonist team during the heist for the pincer movement to be successful.
The only explanation I have for this is:
-Sator hits Kat after she refuses to go with his men (to the convoy).
*Sator is planning all of this and he probably always planned to invert.

From Kat’s point of view:
-Inverted Sator arrives and forces her into the inverted Audi.
-They drive to the convoy and get the case.
(He possibly gets out and burns the Saab)
-The Saab unexplodes
-Inverted Sator checks the case and it’s empty
-Inverted Sator leaves Kat in the car
-Inverted Sator and his men engage in a shootout to look for the package in the BMW.
-Inverted Sator and his (inverted/non-inverted men) kidnap Kat and The Protagonist, take them to the freeport.
-Inverted Sator takes Kat through the blue room and shoots her.

From Sator’s perspective:
-Sator exists the turnstile
-Interrogates the protagonist
-Un-shoots Kat
-Takes her to the car and head to the convoy
-He looks for the package in the BMW
-His men take him to the Audi and he gets on it
-He throws the case at the Protagonist
-He knows where the plutonium is (in the Saab)
- He burns the Saab

Kat is never inverted in this sequence but there’s a missing piece of the puzzle Nolan chose not to include and it makes things really confusing. I was extremely confused by her journey through this sequence but to me it only makes sense that she gets taken from the freeport by Inverted Sator or his men then the convoy happens.

The end of her journey is the beginning of inverted Sator’s journey.

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TENET wrote:
October 7th, 2020, 5:33 pm
I haven’t been to the forums in a while and it’s been a month since I saw the movie.

I still have a lot of questions, but (a quite simple) one is nagging me:
In the third act battle, how does reversed Neil enter the tunnel to open the door for the Protagonist with the tunnel blocked from the trip mine? Is the turn machine underground as well?
It's one of those things that's annoyingly left off-screen due to the elliptical structuring of the film, like
future-Sator sending one of his goons to retrieve the Saab with the machine piece in it from outside the Tallinn turnstile building after finishing his inverted run, which had to have occurred outside while the interrogation was going on inside the blue/red chambers.
Personally I think the only way this part of the climax makes sense is if
Neil inverts some time after the end of the movie, drops down the hole himself (via the cable attached to the humvee before it, or other means - the alternative would be clearing the tunnel entrance and entering that way, which would take more time), lets himself through the gate & shuts it behind him, and hides out somewhere in the underground complex of tunnels (we're shown two brief glimpses - one of a section of the tunnel with what looks like doors on one side, and later a widened cavern-like area just before they make the turn down the last stretch before the metal gate) until the hypocentre explosion reverses, and then runs down to the gate where he lets JDW and Ives through, and then is shot and dies.

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danevito wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 7:57 pm
There's one scene or a concept that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. In the middle act we see the street heist in Estonia with Sator going in reverse to steal the final algorithm in a pincer movement.

So Sator comes to the docks with his wife (unknowingly) just in time for Sator to get ready to go in inverted with the information he will get from the protagonist and Niel who are captured and brought to the storage unit and inversion machine. But they also arrive with Sators wife, so where was she talking to Sator and being kicked on the floor? Cant be at two places at the same time if you never got inverted?

the problem I have is, because she is clearly not inverted in those scens, she wears no mask when she's saved by the protagonist in the car right before they are captured and brought back to the storage unit.

So how can she be arriving with Sator (not inverted) then taken back in time with Sator now being inverted in the car. Then forward again after she is rescued back to the docks to get inverted together with the protagonist to save her from the inverted bullet. But when they get captured after the shootout in the first place and brought back she is separated and brought in with Sator again on the other side of the container. So what version of her is going back out to the street with Sator and what version is saved through the inversion machine? seems like there are two versions of her the whole time.

Are we supposed to distinguish whatever an inverted person touches or is near is also supposed to go backward in time?

hard to wrap my head around and I bet half of the audience didnt even think this far.
there is only 1 version of Kat in the car chase.

once the 'present' Sator beat the shit out of Kat. even though Sator is in the 'present', he already received intel about the upcoming car chase because his future self has sent him documents about it.

the 'future' Sator, which is the Sator that went into the turnstile after Ives and co. arrives, then bring Kat into the car chase and the interrogate her. Of course from the 'future' inverted Sator POV - who is moving backwards in time - he exited the turnstile, invert shot Kat, interrogated the Protagonist and then went to the car chase.

the gas mask - especially when worn outside a shipping container or an closed environment full of inverted oxygen - is a good indication that someone is inverted. you can tell from their movement too with respect to the rest of the world.

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One thing still bothering me is the scene where Kat
is left alone in the Audi during the car chase.

It says in the screenplay that the Audi continues to accelerate after inverted-Sator and his henchman climb into the Mercedes. How is the Audi moving forward (from inverted Sator's perspective) when Kat is alone inside before Sator switches from the Mercedes to the Audi (again, from his perspective)?

I can sort of accept how bullet holes and wounds caused by inverted people just sort of materialize from a non-inverted perspective before the bullet sucks back into the gun because cause and effect is sort of weird in this world, but the situation with Audi moving by itself just really doesn't make sense to me. Someone had to have been stepping on the gas regardless of whether it's from an inverted or non-inverted perspective.

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