[SPOILER] Discussion/Speculation Thread

Christopher Nolan's time inverting spy film that follows a protagonist fighting for the survival of the entire world.
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speedy117
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LelekPL wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 1:44 am
speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 25th, 2020, 8:52 am
 Ok, I just got more confused about something
The time capsules. The future is sending gold bars and instructions into the past so Sator can be paid. But if Sator in the past digs the inverted gold bars up, then the gold bars are no longer in the time capsule travelling backwards through time. How does this work?
Wait what? It works exactly how you described it. What's the issue?
Do you think a time capsule is some sort of device? It's just a box where you put inverted items and then dig it up in the past. It's the same as the time capsules people have now only in reverse. It's only a "time capsule" until you dig it up.
The future is sending gold bars to Sator in the past, so the time capsule is travelling backwards through time ex. From year 2100-2020. So in those 80 years, it is in the time capsule. However, if Sator digs them up in 2020, then from 2020-2100, the gold bars are no longer in the time capsule but are in Sator's possession.
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speedy117
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Pr0creation wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 8:19 am
LelekPL wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 1:44 am
speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 25th, 2020, 8:52 am
 Ok, I just got more confused about something
The time capsules. The future is sending gold bars and instructions into the past so Sator can be paid. But if Sator in the past digs the inverted gold bars up, then the gold bars are no longer in the time capsule travelling backwards through time. How does this work?
Wait what? It works exactly how you described it. What's the issue?
Do you think a time capsule is some sort of device? It's just a box where you put inverted items and then dig it up in the past. It's the same as the time capsules people have now only in reverse. It's only a "time capsule" until you dig it up.
The problem is the inverse actions no longer mirror the forward actions. If the gold bars were traveling backwards through time in a capsule untouched then forward time has to be the same.

the only resolve i can think is he inverts himself so he can dig them up as they are traveling backwards then revert forwards with the gold bars.
So if they dig up the gold while inverted, and then revert the gold, that means there is two gold stashes existing at the same time?
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Pr0creation
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speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 12:41 pm
Pr0creation wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 8:19 am
LelekPL wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 1:44 am
Wait what? It works exactly how you described it. What's the issue?
Do you think a time capsule is some sort of device? It's just a box where you put inverted items and then dig it up in the past. It's the same as the time capsules people have now only in reverse. It's only a "time capsule" until you dig it up.
The problem is the inverse actions no longer mirror the forward actions. If the gold bars were traveling backwards through time in a capsule untouched then forward time has to be the same.

the only resolve i can think is he inverts himself so he can dig them up as they are traveling backwards then revert forwards with the gold bars.
So if they dig up the gold while inverted, and then revert the gold, that means there is two gold stashes existing at the same time?

Yeah
Just like there was 2 protagonists
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speedy117
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Pr0creation wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 2:33 pm
speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 12:41 pm
Pr0creation wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 8:19 am
The problem is the inverse actions no longer mirror the forward actions. If the gold bars were traveling backwards through time in a capsule untouched then forward time has to be the same.

the only resolve i can think is he inverts himself so he can dig them up as they are traveling backwards then revert forwards with the gold bars.
So if they dig up the gold while inverted, and then revert the gold, that means there is two gold stashes existing at the same time?

Yeah
Just like there was 2 protagonists
Are you sure? When Sator first digged up the time capsule as a teen, he obviously wasn't inverted. And when he was examining the gold on his yacht, the gold was still inverted.
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Pr0creation
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speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 2:47 pm
Pr0creation wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 2:33 pm
speedy117 wrote: ↑
September 26th, 2020, 12:41 pm

So if they dig up the gold while inverted, and then revert the gold, that means there is two gold stashes existing at the same time?

Yeah
Just like there was 2 protagonists
Are you sure? When Sator first digged up the time capsule as a teen, he obviously wasn't inverted. And when he was examining the gold on his yacht, the gold was still inverted.
Yeah, like i said that's the only resolve i can think.
Or someone reburies the capsule at some point.
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MuffinMcFluffin
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MuffinMcFluffin wrote: ↑
September 13th, 2020, 8:19 pm
quervo wrote: ↑
September 13th, 2020, 6:11 pm
 About THAT theory.
I just watched it third time, and was trying to imagine that Max is Neil, but I just can't. I think since Vader=Anakin people are trying to find forced connections between characters, but since that I can't recall any good usage of this kind of plot twists. The Prestige did it well, but remember, it wasn't our task to find it out, Nolan showed the truth just as he did in TDKR (Miranda=Talia). Of course, Max can be Neil, because there's nothing denying it, and as Tenet is a fiction without any pre/sequels, you have the right to believe or even to be sure that's the truth, but I'm nearly 100% sure that in Nolan's head they're not the same.
I wasn't speculating though, I was wondering why it wasn't canonized in the first place.

That said, it's not that much of a stretch:

  • Nolan has mentioned in an interview that Neil is not the character's real name.
  • MAXIMILIEN -- NEIL.
  • Longer blonde hair.
  • English accent.
  • Graduate degree in Physics.
  • Speaks Estonian, as does Sator.
  • "Would you take a child hostage? A woman?"
  • Knows much about Protag and is one step ahead every step of the way.
  • Cares for Kat after injury, like a good boy.
  • Knowledge of personal date from Kat's past of which Max was around.
  • Performs an indebted sacrifice to Protag with his own life.
  • "See you at the beginning." Next (and final) scene shows Protag watching Kat & Max.

I'm probably missing some.

One or two of these wouldn't mean anything, or is as much chalked up to the idea of old Protag recruiting Neil in the past as much as anything else (which he still does). But when you're hitting a dozen in your list, you're no longer grasping.

I remember the second time I saw the movie I didn't really see much either, but then again I just didn't really see much of Neil at all. Everyone is saying how amazing Pattinson is in this movie, and I was thinking I barely even felt his presence. It would be nice if his allusion was through Max though, because his presence could then be more felt.
Back to this.

I went to a website that displayed 1,000 of the most popular boy's names (maybe of 2018 by childbirth), and although I probably could have done something better when it came to searching like only looking up British names or something, this kind of really still does cover the gamut.

https://www.whattoexpect.com/baby-names ... -for-boys/

Here are names that I found you can reverse to still make a boy's name, even if it's a stretch (and I want to note that Maximilien wasn't on there, but they did have Max, Maxim, Maximus, Maximilian, and Maximiliano):

Julien = Neil
Thomas = Sam
Nicholas = Sal
Douglas = Sal
Dallas = Sal
Atlas = Sal
Sylas = Sal
Connor = Ron
Joel = Leo
Coen = Neo
Clyde = Edy
Kylo = Oly
Magnus = (Sun) Sol
Rodney = Yen
Anakin = Nik
Soren = Nero (both names coincidentally mean "stern"; one of Danish origin, the other Latin)
Damari = Ira
Jamari = Ira
Jabari = Ira
Kamari = Ira
Dakari = Ira
Khari = Ira
Ari = Ira
Asa = Asa
Otto = Otto
Mac = Cam
Nova = Avon
Noel = Leon

So let's throw out a bunch of these immediately, mostly because they would be too obvious as they are either directly reversible, palindromic, or don't have nicknames to hide themselves from the fact. Then let's take away many others that are not of "white boy Brit" origin (this unfortunately would remove the Italian name Sal, which salvetorem Latin for "One who is a savior"). I'd also like to force "Cooper = Repo," as Repo could be a nickname for Arepo and Nolan has used Cooper in the past, bahaha!

Anyway, ultimately the only other one that really works here is "Thomas = Sam," which of course you can call him Tommy as a boy to hide it a little more.

So assuming the 1,000 name list is pretty adequate, what are the odds that Christopher Nolan just so happened to choose the one pair of boy's names (out of two total pairs) which discretely exhibit some form of palindromic presence for the two film characters that also have more than one indicator as to possibly being the same person? There's no way that's a coincidence.

Now, many people are saying that Neil doesn't show much compassion for Kat. It's incredibly likely that Nolan didn't tell Pattinson and Debicki about this. I'm sure he didn't even tell his wife about this. This is a Nolan thing, something he'll take to his grave... just like the end of Inception, and according to some the end of Memento. The alternative, of course, is if Neil led too much onto the fact that he is Kat's son, then perhaps Kat won't be as motivated to be a part of everything that was integral in saving the world.
mario80
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MuffinMcFluffin
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I still need help on the Oslo Freeport scene.

They never once tried to extract/destroy/seek out the Goya drawing. Maybe that wasn't the plan since they wanted to get deep into the pentagon area according to the scene before, but this wasn't really obvious to the audience watching.

I wasn't sure what they were exactly trying to do there if it wasn't to get the Goya drawing. I know that awesome things happen which we get to watch happen such as the fight, but ultimately they went there and kind of didn't really do much of anything in the result of an actual plan.
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Tarssauce
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MuffinMcFluffin wrote: ↑
October 5th, 2020, 2:58 am
 I still need help on the Oslo Freeport scene.

They never once tried to extract/destroy/seek out the Goya drawing. Maybe that wasn't the plan since they wanted to get deep into the pentagon area according to the scene before, but this wasn't really obvious to the audience watching.

I wasn't sure what they were exactly trying to do there if it wasn't to get the Goya drawing. I know that awesome things happen which we get to watch happen such as the fight, but ultimately they went there and kind of didn't really do much of anything in the result of an actual plan.
I was confused on my first viewing as well by this
Basically, Kat assumed the painting was in Oslo Freeport - and she was right as we later find out. TP assumes it's in the vault at the middle of the structure, thinking he'll find the painting and maybe inverted bullets. When he entered the vault there was no sign of the painting and something of bigger importance occurred.

He lied to Kat and he eventually got what he wanted - a meeting with Sator.

I was also initially confused by the painting he had (Goya) and the painting Sator has to blackmail Kat (not Goya but fabricated by the same person - Arepo). But that got clearer with repeated viewings.
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MuffinMcFluffin
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Location: Elk Grove, CA
Tarssauce wrote: ↑
October 5th, 2020, 12:13 pm
MuffinMcFluffin wrote: ↑
October 5th, 2020, 2:58 am
 I still need help on the Oslo Freeport scene.

They never once tried to extract/destroy/seek out the Goya drawing. Maybe that wasn't the plan since they wanted to get deep into the pentagon area according to the scene before, but this wasn't really obvious to the audience watching.

I wasn't sure what they were exactly trying to do there if it wasn't to get the Goya drawing. I know that awesome things happen which we get to watch happen such as the fight, but ultimately they went there and kind of didn't really do much of anything in the result of an actual plan.
I was confused on my first viewing as well by this
Basically, Kat assumed the painting was in Oslo Freeport - and she was right as we later find out. TP assumes it's in the vault at the middle of the structure, thinking he'll find the painting and maybe inverted bullets. When he entered the vault there was no sign of the painting and something of bigger importance occurred.

He lied to Kat and he eventually got what he wanted - a meeting with Sator.

I was also initially confused by the painting he had (Goya) and the painting Sator has to blackmail Kat (not Goya but fabricated by the same person - Arepo). But that got clearer with repeated viewings.
I knew there were two different drawings, but my question was regarding why they didn't try seek it out once they were alone in the room of all the other art. I understand now though, you're saying Sator would have his Goya drawing in a vault in the middle of that ROTAS pentagon room and not with everybody else's, so they were still in fact seeking it out at that time. Makes more sense.

Okay, I got two more for you if you're still around (or anyone else). I think I have this first one, but I want to be sure I'm thinking of it correctly:

1)
There are now two Kat's who exist in the ending timeline that we're seeing, let's call them Old Kat (the one who kills Sator) and Young Kat (the one who sees O.K. diving off the yacht). There is only one Max as a youngin, however.

Which version of Kat is picking up Max at the end of the movie?

If I'm thinking of this right, this must be a little deeper into the future than we see during the time of the red/blue room, because that's as far as any version of a Young Kat gets before she goes backwards in time. So Old Kat just hangs out until that moment in time, then she takes over to be the only Kat remaining through the rest of future time?

2)
After they decide to go further back in time to before the Opera/Stalsk-12 events, Protag goes to see Priya as she vomits more exposition to him. This is the first time they ever actually meet in the film's timeline of events that we see, yet the first thing she asks is something like: "Where's Neil?"

Even if she is a trained Tenet recruit, I'm not sure how at this point in the timeline she would know that he is some Old Protag version as he approaches her at that moment. I mean if I think hard enough then maybe I'd understand that a New Protag wouldn't have ever sought her out until after the Opera/Stalsk-12 moment in the timeline so even that version of him must've also met Neil at some point, but at this time Priya doesn't even know that Protag is going to visit her in the first place (I doubt even some Old Protag would have clued her in about that idea for omission's sake).

I'm just wondering why she asks about Neil to a Protag who may or may not have met Neil at that particular point in time. Maybe that's not something worth probing for the bigger picture since that's not an important question, but Priya is blindsided by Protag and has the mindset to ask that on the spot, so she must've already known what version she was speaking to. It was just kind of weird timing is all.
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