[SPOILER] Discussion/Speculation Thread

An original action espionage film releasing in IMAX on August 12, 2020
Posts: 24
Joined: July 2010
speedy117 wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 8:55 pm
quervo wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:11 pm
About THAT theory.
I just watched it third time, and was trying to imagine that Max is Neil, but I just can't. I think since Vader=Anakin people are trying to find forced connections between characters, but since that I can't recall any good usage of this kind of plot twists. The Prestige did it well, but remember, it wasn't our task to find it out, Nolan showed the truth just as he did in TDKR (Miranda=Talia). Of course, Max can be Neil, because there's nothing denying it, and as Tenet is a fiction without any pre/sequels, you have the right to believe or even to be sure that's the truth, but I'm nearly 100% sure that in Nolan's head they're not the same.
A lot of things happen off camera, so now I think I can live with the ending, but some smaller details bother me.
I'm talking about objects that were hit by inverted objects. The BMW's mirror was broken before the Audi unbroke it. I really want to know that car's backstory. Did they assemble the car in the BMW factory with a broken mirror knowing that one day in Tallinn an Audi will come and erase the fracture? :D The twice-exploded building... what was it like in the seventies? That building had to be built in the past, but after the blue team explodes it, it remains collided in the past (as we see in the red team's POV). And the debris of the wall at Barbara's labor. We see that debris fill the hole as the bullet leaves the rock, but where are those debris come from?
For the BMW mirror thing
I think what happens is that the mirror was normal and fixed, but leading up to the point of the car chase it will slowly start to crack, kind of like how the Protagonist's knife wound slowly started to appear at the airport. Also, I'm not exactly sure though, they might've explained this a bit by talking about wind or something? I've only seen the film once so correct me if I'm wrong.
I disagree with this completely, but respectfully. What you lay out is trying to work in cause and effect.

The type of "time-travel" / "time-inversion" is purely perspective. There is almost no cause or effect. It is what it is. You can't do anything other than what has always happened. It's predetermined in the same way that the roll of film you are watching
is predetermined. You can view the film forward or backwards, or in pieces, but the way you experience it has no impact on cause and effect. The past, present and future all exist as is, with no instances of the past being able to change something in the future, or the "present rear-view mirror" having to degrade as to not cause a continuity error.

The reverse bullets in the wall that reverse into the gun don't need a resolution to how they got their in the first place / in the past. The answer is they got put there in the future.

The "cause" is in the future. So the mirror is broken from the moment of impact until always before then. This feels paradoxical, because it leads to questions like well when the manufacturer made the car, did it install a broken mirror? but again, thats trying to work in the rules for cause and effect. It's not a paradox if you accept that theres only one way it could exist and that way is the way it's always been.

This is how interstellar is as well. Cooper doesn't change the past by communicating the info to himself/Murph in the future. everything is and always was the same way.

I'm just rambling now and i know that i didn't explain myself clearly, but it is what it is.

User avatar
Posts: 2485
Joined: December 2016
Okay, so just finished reading the screenplay. Didn’t find any clues clarifying the most confusing bits (to me). So many cut lines that added extra clarity (especially Priya’s)

I still find certain scenes extremely confusing
-Red room / Blue room
-Car chase (Sator’s perspective)
-Third act is super duper confusing - Lame better win an Oscar for her work because it made no sense on the page and must’ve been hard to translate into the screen. Inverted / non-inverted soldiers + inverted / non-inverted weapons all interacting
simultaneously! How the fuck did Nolan conceive it?

One important detail: the last algorithm piece was indeed in the Saab.

User avatar
Posts: 481
Joined: September 2019
thedonkeywheel wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 7:22 pm
speedy117 wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 8:55 pm
quervo wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:11 pm
About THAT theory.
I just watched it third time, and was trying to imagine that Max is Neil, but I just can't. I think since Vader=Anakin people are trying to find forced connections between characters, but since that I can't recall any good usage of this kind of plot twists. The Prestige did it well, but remember, it wasn't our task to find it out, Nolan showed the truth just as he did in TDKR (Miranda=Talia). Of course, Max can be Neil, because there's nothing denying it, and as Tenet is a fiction without any pre/sequels, you have the right to believe or even to be sure that's the truth, but I'm nearly 100% sure that in Nolan's head they're not the same.
A lot of things happen off camera, so now I think I can live with the ending, but some smaller details bother me.
I'm talking about objects that were hit by inverted objects. The BMW's mirror was broken before the Audi unbroke it. I really want to know that car's backstory. Did they assemble the car in the BMW factory with a broken mirror knowing that one day in Tallinn an Audi will come and erase the fracture? :D The twice-exploded building... what was it like in the seventies? That building had to be built in the past, but after the blue team explodes it, it remains collided in the past (as we see in the red team's POV). And the debris of the wall at Barbara's labor. We see that debris fill the hole as the bullet leaves the rock, but where are those debris come from?
For the BMW mirror thing
I think what happens is that the mirror was normal and fixed, but leading up to the point of the car chase it will slowly start to crack, kind of like how the Protagonist's knife wound slowly started to appear at the airport. Also, I'm not exactly sure though, they might've explained this a bit by talking about wind or something? I've only seen the film once so correct me if I'm wrong.
I disagree with this completely, but respectfully. What you lay out is trying to work in cause and effect.

The type of "time-travel" / "time-inversion" is purely perspective. There is almost no cause or effect. It is what it is. You can't do anything other than what has always happened. It's predetermined in the same way that the roll of film you are watching
is predetermined. You can view the film forward or backwards, or in pieces, but the way you experience it has no impact on cause and effect. The past, present and future all exist as is, with no instances of the past being able to change something in the future, or the "present rear-view mirror" having to degrade as to not cause a continuity error.

The reverse bullets in the wall that reverse into the gun don't need a resolution to how they got their in the first place / in the past. The answer is they got put there in the future.

The "cause" is in the future. So the mirror is broken from the moment of impact until always before then. This feels paradoxical, because it leads to questions like well when the manufacturer made the car, did it install a broken mirror? but again, thats trying to work in the rules for cause and effect. It's not a paradox if you accept that theres only one way it could exist and that way is the way it's always been.

This is how interstellar is as well. Cooper doesn't change the past by communicating the info to himself/Murph in the future. everything is and always was the same way.

I'm just rambling now and i know that i didn't explain myself clearly, but it is what it is.
So instead of trying to find out when the broken mirror appeared, you are just gonna ignore it because it dives too deep into cause and effect? This is a complex film that deals with complex concepts, you can't just ignore paradoxes.

User avatar
Posts: 6
Joined: September 2020
Location: India
speedy117 wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:41 am
thedonkeywheel wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 7:22 pm
speedy117 wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 8:55 pm


For the BMW mirror thing
I think what happens is that the mirror was normal and fixed, but leading up to the point of the car chase it will slowly start to crack, kind of like how the Protagonist's knife wound slowly started to appear at the airport. Also, I'm not exactly sure though, they might've explained this a bit by talking about wind or something? I've only seen the film once so correct me if I'm wrong.
I disagree with this completely, but respectfully. What you lay out is trying to work in cause and effect.

The type of "time-travel" / "time-inversion" is purely perspective. There is almost no cause or effect. It is what it is. You can't do anything other than what has always happened. It's predetermined in the same way that the roll of film you are watching
is predetermined. You can view the film forward or backwards, or in pieces, but the way you experience it has no impact on cause and effect. The past, present and future all exist as is, with no instances of the past being able to change something in the future, or the "present rear-view mirror" having to degrade as to not cause a continuity error.

The reverse bullets in the wall that reverse into the gun don't need a resolution to how they got their in the first place / in the past. The answer is they got put there in the future.

The "cause" is in the future. So the mirror is broken from the moment of impact until always before then. This feels paradoxical, because it leads to questions like well when the manufacturer made the car, did it install a broken mirror? but again, thats trying to work in the rules for cause and effect. It's not a paradox if you accept that theres only one way it could exist and that way is the way it's always been.

This is how interstellar is as well. Cooper doesn't change the past by communicating the info to himself/Murph in the future. everything is and always was the same way.

I'm just rambling now and i know that i didn't explain myself clearly, but it is what it is.
So instead of trying to find out when the broken mirror appeared, you are just gonna ignore it because it dives too deep into cause and effect? This is a complex film that deals with complex concepts, you can't just ignore paradoxes.
It's pretty easy to understand if you view all of this by perspective of inverted humans/objects.
BMW mirror/ bullets holes at freeport are same thing but bullet holes at freeport are easy to explain as we see it by both perspective. I have taken a long time like 10 min for each thing it's just to make things easy.
Normal JDW/Our perspective :
10:00 JDW entered Freeport
10:10 Bullet holes appeared in glass
10:20 SWAT guy jumps at JDW
10:30 Bullet holes are sucked by SWAT guy
10:40 SWAT guy escapes
Now from SWAT guy/inverted JDW's perspective :
10:40 SWAT guy enters
10:30 SWAT guy shoots bullets creating bullet holes
10:20 SWAT guy jumps in turnstile
now he is un-inverted so he proceeds as 10:21 10:22 10:23 and so on where he was chased by Neil
THIS PROVES THAT CAUSE AND EFFECT ARE EQUALLY DISTANT ON TIME AXIS FROM POINT OF INVERSION LYING ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF POINT OF INVERSION.
As we do not see perspective of Audi but we can clearly say following things,
JDW/Our perspective :
10:00 Heist preparation
10:10 BMW mirror appears broken
10:20 JDW steals Plutonium 241
10:30 Audi hits BMW resulting in fixing the mirror as new
from this we can clearly deduce that Audi was inverted at 10:20

User avatar
Posts: 1177
Joined: July 2011
Does anyone else feel like you sometimes understand less the more you think about Tenet? :lol:
Soooo
If the prologue was a test (or at least the torturing?) to recruit The Protagonist into Tenet, and everyone was working for The Protagonist, does that mean he created a way to...test himself for his worthiness? lol. I honestly feel dumber right now than on first viewing.

Also, when Barbara is explaining inversion and tells him he has to have dropped the bullet, he just...adjusts his glove and suddenly it works? Then shortly after he says, "Instinct.... got it." Like, what? lol

Posts: 37
Joined: January 2020
Hustler wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:27 pm
Does anyone else feel like you sometimes understand less the more you think about Tenet? :lol:
Soooo
If the prologue was a test (or at least the torturing?) to recruit The Protagonist into Tenet, and everyone was working for The Protagonist, does that mean he created a way to...test himself for his worthiness? lol. I honestly feel dumber right now than on first viewing.

Also, when Barbara is explaining inversion and tells him he has to have dropped the bullet, he just...adjusts his glove and suddenly it works? Then shortly after he says, "Instinct.... got it." Like, what? lol
I don't think the ENTIRETY of the prologue was a test. When JDW wakes up, Donovan's character says that several members of his team died, and JDW responds "Someone talked?", to which Donovan responds, "Not you." I believe the only part that was a test was the fake suicide pill.The rest was real. I'm not entirely certain if the torturers were in on it or not, but my personal understanding was that they were not and were actual bad guys.

For the other thing, at first he just placed his hand over the bullet, expecting it to come back to his hand. He didn't simply adjust the glove, he acted as if he had actually dropped it. It's not that big of a thing for me

User avatar
Posts: 19880
Joined: June 2010
Location: The White City
Hustler wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:27 pm
Does anyone else feel like you sometimes understand less the more you think about Tenet? :lol:
Soooo
If the prologue was a test (or at least the torturing?) to recruit The Protagonist into Tenet, and everyone was working for The Protagonist, does that mean he created a way to...test himself for his worthiness? lol. I honestly feel dumber right now than on first viewing.

Also, when Barbara is explaining inversion and tells him he has to have dropped the bullet, he just...adjusts his glove and suddenly it works? Then shortly after he says, "Instinct.... got it." Like, what? lol
remember that
everything the protagonist does in the future, it's because it's "already" happened to him, so in a sense he's ensuring the preservation of the time loop. This is where questions of paradox come into play, as do the film's more philosophical juggling of free will vs determinism.

-Vader

User avatar
Posts: 1177
Joined: July 2011
Look, don’t get on the chopper if you can’t stop thinking in linear terms.
I'll see myself out of this thread :lol:

Posts: 3
Joined: May 2020
Is There a Scene Missing during the Car Chase?

I have seen this movie about 3 times, and I have a pretty firm understanding of the plot in its entirety. However I feel like there is a scene missing that explains where and exactly when
Sator got his hands on the Pu 241.
I've been trying to piece this together in my head.
First P hijacks the caravan and steals the macguffin. OK good.
Then P throws an empty case to trick Sator. Obviously.
We then learn that P
throws the Plutonium into the Saab after seeing his older self driving it.

So when did Sator recover the Pu.
He could not have recovered it from the fiery Saab because we saw it fly out of the Saabs window into the hands of the young P.
That must mean the Pu was in the Saab the entire time.
Was it in the Saab before the interrogation?
When older P entered the Saab, did he see the Pu there? If he saw it there, why didn't he just take it?

I feel like we are missing a shot that shows Sator's men recovering it from the Saab before the interrogation. Maybe it was said during the radio chatter, but it was hard to hear for me.
If anyone can offer an explanation that would be great! Def one of my favorite movies of all time.

Posts: 37
Joined: January 2015
Future Tenet theory...
What if the people from the future trying to destroy the past is Tenet?

Sator mentions to the protagonist that the futures "rivers run dry" maybe they got so desperate they stopped believing in "whats happened's happened" and the try to redo what happened in the past by contacting Sator to plant the algorithm.

Post Reply