Society:
Revolution
Corruption
Loyalty
Faith
Survival

I guess. We'll know properly when we see it of course.

I like the idea of a clean slate. Clean slate is the name of the program Selina Kyle needs to erase her criminal record and start her life over. Bruce wants to get past Rachel's death. Alfred wants to move on from a life of service to the Wayne Family - he wants to retire, but can't do it until Bruce is safe and happy. John Blake gives up his police officer gig to become a lone avenger. Gordon wants to tell Gotham the truth about Dent. You could even say The League of Shadows wants a clean slate -- Ra's Al Ghul had a line from Batman Begins "every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence, we return to restore the balance."

Here's a link to beat sheet and podcast on the film:
http://screenplayhowto.com/beat-sheet/t ... y-podcast/

tomhagen wrote:I like the idea of a clean slate. Clean slate is the name of the program Selina Kyle needs to erase her criminal record and start her life over. Bruce wants to get past Rachel's death. Alfred wants to move on from a life of service to the Wayne Family - he wants to retire, but can't do it until Bruce is safe and happy. John Blake gives up his police officer gig to become a lone avenger. Gordon wants to tell Gotham the truth about Dent. You could even say The League of Shadows wants a clean slate -- Ra's Al Ghul had a line from Batman Begins "every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence, we return to restore the balance."

Here's a link to beat sheet and podcast on the film:
http://screenplayhowto.com/beat-sheet/t ... y-podcast/

The clean slate definitely represents a strong theme in TDKR. I also found it very interesting that it was the fear of death that Bruce had to find once again to make the jump and escape the pit. Did you feel like Alfred was accusing him of having a death wish when they were talking in the cave, and so he had to get past that and want to live in order to escape and be "reborn?"

This is almost the opposite of the theme of BB (which makes sense as they are chapters 1 and 3), which was all about Bruce conquering his fear and then learning to use it against his enemies.

Hope.

Pain and Anger

Also Hope, Faith..

Like A Tale of Two Cities, Nolan presents the good and bad amongst the two social classes primarily focused on in TDKR. He doesn't condemn or condone either. He presents the brutality and corrupt as well as the just.

-Vader

Based4Life wrote:Hope.

Despair. There is no despair without hope.

Big spoilers just in case anyone's in here that hasn't seen the film even though nobody else seems to use spoiler tags anymore:

Most of these dwell strictly in the surface level and don't inform the more specific and complex character and societal explorations Nolan pursues throughout the film. For Rises, there's a big obvious link to Nolan implying the general risk of a collapsing society and how that can happen and its implications.

It's alarming and almost inspiring the prophetic nature of broader strokes of the narrative being laid down long prior to the wall street movement, and for a film making Gotham a contemporary Pars from the French Revolution and hinting our current society is beginning to be at risk of similar social and class problems, albeit in a far less extreme way, we may face a sort of revolution and then there's the wall street movement and others that are sure to follow. It sort of exposes Nolan's pulse on what "worries' society today, making me wonder what sort of impact his films will have on future audiences because his films seem at times so tailored to the audiences viewing them at the time of release. The risk of total societal collapse is terrifying to many, and given how Bane basically merely enables the lower class to rise up by (mostly) telling them the truth about Gotham, it has pretty horrifying truths within society, theirs and ours. If the aristocrats continue oppressing the lower class, there's an inevitability to an uprising vying to reverse the roles and revert to essentially a "share the spoils" communistic or socialistic (are those words?) dominated by a dangerous mob mentality overflowing with brutality (the courts, general treatment of the upper class, seemingly condoning mass terrorist attacks across Gotham- it's indicated the lower class were well aware of a "storm coming" and were excited for it).

I'm not sure if it can be classified as a "theme' as much as a storytelling and thematic tool, but (like A Tale of Two Cities) the notion of "doubles" plays heavily in most major arcs.

-Foley and Gordon: political climber vs someone to show everything Gordon isn't and it's Gordon's "fault" cops like this exist because of the Dent act.

-Blake and Gordon: Showing Gordon who he is.

-Blake and Bruce: Obvious- they're essentially the same person. Natural detective, similar emotional paths, similar stance on guns, similar disregard for one's own safety for the sake of helping others.

-Bruce and Selina: Challenges most of his thinking in a playful and seductive manner, she's searching similarly for redemption, etc.

-Bruce and Bane: Obvious, both have masks, both interacted with the league, Bane is everything Bruce would be had he made one different choice going back to Begins enriching the power of Bruce's own choice while tearing down everything Batman was and is, both are driven by compassion for the innocent (Bane's entire story starting with his desire for redemption by protecting the innocent).

There's other things like every major character actively seeking redemption and relief from past misdeeds and consequences. The primary exception is John Blake, making him the noble and powerful underpinning that grounds much of the narrative in emotional terms- his idealism is refreshing that begins setting up the catharsis found at the conclusion of his character arc.

Not that this is a theme necessarily either, but the notion that the key to escaping past demons and achieve ultimate redemption is embracing fear and living through that, showing a healthy sense of self worth. When Bruce escapes the pit, he no longer needs Batman to become the monster within, Batman's no longer an outlet for Bruce's negative, damaged emotions, but becomes the symbol and guardian for a city that only he could then be while preparing Blake for the task. There's that notion of immorality and the legend and legacy Bruce leaves as a measure for a city to repair itself. Foley, a character representative of the political climbers in Gotham that were previously dismissive of the city's well being (going for Gordon's commissioner position and consistently undermining Gordon) is finally redeemed in the final act, implying that growth within Gotham's citizens.

Finally, in the ending of the film, (and this connects back to what opened this rant/analysis with) Nolan makes the bold choice to imply the system's of man are perpetually flawed and will always, on some level, necessitate justice outside of a system, even a mostly good one. There's no 'fixing' the problem, the system itself is part of the problem, and always will be.

Even in the emotionally uplifting conclusion, this is by far Nolan's most cynical and critical film of society on every level, frankly condemning the upper class and lower class in spades, but always remembering the triumphant quality of redemption. Heavy stuff for a 250 million dollar spectacular.

-Vader

Vader182 wrote:Big spoilers just in case anyone's in here that hasn't seen the film even though nobody else seems to use spoiler tags anymore:

Most of these dwell strictly in the surface level and don't inform the more specific and complex character and societal explorations Nolan pursues throughout the film. For Rises, there's a big obvious link to Nolan implying the general risk of a collapsing society and how that can happen and its implications.

It's alarming and almost inspiring the prophetic nature of broader strokes of the narrative being laid down long prior to the wall street movement, and for a film making Gotham a contemporary Pars from the French Revolution and hinting our current society is beginning to be at risk of similar social and class problems, albeit in a far less extreme way, we may face a sort of revolution and then there's the wall street movement and others that are sure to follow. It sort of exposes Nolan's pulse on what "worries' society today, making me wonder what sort of impact his films will have on future audiences because his films seem at times so tailored to the audiences viewing them at the time of release. The risk of total societal collapse is terrifying to many, and given how Bane basically merely enables the lower class to rise up by (mostly) telling them the truth about Gotham, it has pretty horrifying truths within society, theirs and ours. If the aristocrats continue oppressing the lower class, there's an inevitability to an uprising vying to reverse the roles and revert to essentially a "share the spoils" communistic or socialistic (are those words?) dominated by a dangerous mob mentality overflowing with brutality (the courts, general treatment of the upper class, seemingly condoning mass terrorist attacks across Gotham- it's indicated the lower class were well aware of a "storm coming" and were excited for it).

I'm not sure if it can be classified as a "theme' as much as a storytelling and thematic tool, but (like A Tale of Two Cities) the notion of "doubles" plays heavily in most major arcs.

-Foley and Gordon: political climber vs someone to show everything Gordon isn't and it's Gordon's "fault" cops like this exist because of the Dent act.

-Blake and Gordon: Showing Gordon who he is.

-Blake and Bruce: Obvious- they're essentially the same person. Natural detective, similar emotional paths, similar stance on guns, similar disregard for one's own safety for the sake of helping others.

-Bruce and Selina: Challenges most of his thinking in a playful and seductive manner, she's searching similarly for redemption, etc.

-Bruce and Bane: Obvious, both have masks, both interacted with the league, Bane is everything Bruce would be had he made one different choice going back to Begins enriching the power of Bruce's own choice while tearing down everything Batman was and is, both are driven by compassion for the innocent (Bane's entire story starting with his desire for redemption by protecting the innocent).

There's other things like every major character actively seeking redemption and relief from past misdeeds and consequences. The primary exception is John Blake, making him the noble and powerful underpinning that grounds much of the narrative in emotional terms- his idealism is refreshing that begins setting up the catharsis found at the conclusion of his character arc.

Not that this is a theme necessarily either, but the notion that the key to escaping past demons and achieve ultimate redemption is embracing fear and living through that, showing a healthy sense of self worth. When Bruce escapes the pit, he no longer needs Batman to become the monster within, Batman's no longer an outlet for Bruce's negative, damaged emotions, but becomes the symbol and guardian for a city that only he could then be while preparing Blake for the task. There's that notion of immorality and the legend and legacy Bruce leaves as a measure for a city to repair itself. Foley, a character representative of the political climbers in Gotham that were previously dismissive of the city's well being (going for Gordon's commissioner position and consistently undermining Gordon) is finally redeemed in the final act, implying that growth within Gotham's citizens.

Finally, in the ending of the film, (and this connects back to what opened this rant/analysis with) Nolan makes the bold choice to imply the system's of man are perpetually flawed and will always, on some level, necessitate justice outside of a system, even a mostly good one. There's no 'fixing' the problem, the system itself is part of the problem, and always will be.

Even in the emotionally uplifting conclusion, this is by far Nolan's most cynical and critical film of society on every level, frankly condemning the upper class and lower class in spades, but always remembering the triumphant quality of redemption. Heavy stuff for a 250 million dollar spectacular.

-Vader

Nice. I wish this thread was more active.