... So that we can learn to pick ourselves up.

Hey everyone. I have been reading these forums for a while now and decided to finally join due to my liking of Mr. Nolan and the civil community lol. I made this post at imdb.com, however that place is full of hoodlums these days. It is about The title.

Anyways,This quote from Batman Begins applies to the the whole story

in Batman Begins Bruce falls, then rises.
In TDK he falls
In TDKR I'd presume he rises back up in some way (no sh!t). Probably not in the way he did in Begins.

I think it is interesting to note that this motif started in the first movie, providing evidence that the new title has as much to do with BB as TDK. The reason I say this is because one of the biggest complaints regarding the title is the Alienation of Begins when in fact the title 'The Dark Knight Rises' Connects directly with the motif / theme that began in Begins.

This leads me to believe that Nolan has had a rough idea of his Batman story for a while (though claims otherwise) and that intends TDKR bring the series full circle thematically and in tone. Knowing this is comforting because as with most third movies (usually ones that continue a story) totally mess this up, X-MEN 3, Spider-Man3, The Last Crusade, even Return of the Jedi (more so tone than theme) all feel different from their predecessors. This is why these third movies fail on some levels imo (some more than others, I consider TLC and ROTJ to be great btw).

Imo opinion the quote 'Why do we fall, so that we can learn to pick ourselves up ' is one of the most important motifs in Begins. Not only does it define Batman but it defines us all.

I got a few responces, a good one was:

"As much as I love this I'm not holding my breath for some reason. One element of TDK that bothered me was a real disconnect with Begins. There was nothing about his father, no quotes from the first movie, nothing about the narrows, arkham etc. Then the look of the city itself was completely different... Eh. I'd love for Nolan to take what has befalled Batman in TDK and bring it back to the origin, but he really hasn't touched upon it since, isn't it kind of late? Who's gonna remember Thomas Wayne now? Who's gonna remember the "Why do we fall?" quote. So many people skipped out on BB, if this movie relied on it moreso than TDK it's doomed to alienate them."

I replied to him
At middle, There were lines from BB in TDK.

1. 'Criminals aren't complicated Alfred' - about the Joker
in BB Ras al Ghul tells Bruce that 'A criminal is NOT complicated'.

2. To Rachel, '...You said we'd be together', referencing the end of Begins.

3. ...'Thats not what I meant when I said I wanted to inspire people' References Bruce's speech to Alfred on the plane in Begins.

I missed a few as well.

Having said this you are absolutely right about TDK feeling different than Begins. This was done to show that '[Gotham] ...has improved' and things are different, 'The criminals are running scared'. Begins had a Dark atmosphere, we could in the look of it feel that the criminals were running Gotham. TDK represents Gotham in a Light atmosphere, the law lead by the White Knight is cleaning the streets. At the end of TDK all is Dark again, the Joker single handedly undid everything the White knight and Batman did to improve Gotham. TDKR will most likely show just how much.

As a side note, notice where the end of TDK takes place. The destroyed building where Rachel died. For Batman this building represents Gotham crumbling and Batmans failure to protect it (and Rachel). It means something else for Dent though. Also when Batman is running from the cops notice all the shipping containers. This ending scene evokes imagery prominent in Begins including the Bat signal along with the containers. My point is by the end of TDK (starting after the hospital explosion) Gotham basically where it was in Begins if not worse. At this point in the film the tone and feel is consistent with Begins, notice the similar imagery at this point; the inmates, the Swat, the containters, the uncompleted/ abandoned building where the climax takes place.

Having said this, I firmly believe that the Tone and feel will be more like BB, but with a structure like TDK.



tThe reason I wrote this was because of all the people with ridiculous notions of how T'The Dark Knight Rises" was going to be. Also too point out thta the title is an apropriate title for the final entry in the trilogy. On IMDB I notice most people do not seem to understand why these films are praised by critics, fans, and the general public a like.

Anyways, tell me what you guys (and girls) think.

Nice analysis...

I feel Nolan does have to come full circle with Begins and I think the title is exactly that, paying homage to the Thomas Wayne quote.

Really great job in that analysis. You've come to the right place.

Nice read indeed.Because it would be so great if TDKR has the tone of BB.

Nice post beanham22!!

very nice post and great read. Post more often.

beanham22 wrote:Who's gonna remember Thomas Wayne now? Who's gonna remember the "Why do we fall?" quote. So many people skipped out on BB, if this movie relied on it moreso than TDK it's doomed to alienate them."

It's simple.

Bring in someone who knows Bruce Wayne personally, someone who has had prior conflicts with Wayne and his family. Let the past be the reason for this person's inclusion into the story. You should probably know who I'm referring to by now........Black Mask.

By involving Black Mask, there's no choice but to involve Thomas Wayne as well. Black Mask became who he is due in part to the Wayne family.

The Dark Knight Rises -> Personal Narrative

Who's gonna remember Thomas Wayne now? Who's gonna remember the "Why do we fall?" quote. So many people skipped out on BB, if this movie relied on it moreso than TDK it's doomed to alienate them."

Anyone that skipped on BB and just watched TDK needs to get their head examined.

Anyways, it can still work. People who skipped out on BB clearly are just in it just for the action and not so much for the themes and substance. Who cares about that group.

Great thread and kudos on the analysis. I agree 100% with how you feel on coming full circle to return to that personal, intimate heart and soul that BB had. I hope Nolan does return to the art style of the first film as well and creates some real drama/story by developing characters. This is the last hurrah, he needs to make it count and not rush the flow of the movie, but rather build build build that dramatic tension.. hell the scene in BB when Batman is sitting on that ledge and Rachel says Who Are you.. and Batman replies "It's not who you are, but what you do that defines you" etc and then flies down, that one scene gave me shivers.. it was THAT GOOD!

eneyman wrote:Great thread and kudos on the analysis. I agree 100% with how you feel on coming full circle to return to that personal, intimate heart and soul that BB had. I hope Nolan does return to the art style of the first film as well and creates some real drama/story by developing characters. This is the last hurrah, he needs to make it count and not rush the flow of the movie, but rather build build build that dramatic tension.. hell the scene in BB when Batman is sitting on that ledge and Rachel says Who Are you.. and Batman replies "It's not who you are, but what you do that defines you" etc and then flies down, that one scene gave me shivers.. it was THAT GOOD!

Thanks for the replies everyone!

That scene still gives me shivers. It is kind of cheesy on its own but when you get the context of it and what it means to the overall stroy its one of the greatest lines imo. Another line that gives me shivers is when Alfred saves Bruce from the fire in the mansion and Bruce is saying that he failed when Alfred uses his Fathers line "Why do we fall?" to get Bruce back up. Thats a great scene in my opinion.

Anyways, Agreed. I personally think that TDKR will be more like BB in the sense of tone and that it is about Batman, however it will probably have just as many parallels with TDK as it does with BB. All I know is I'm excited, lol can't wait for the official casting announcement where Bale is confirmed. I am getting paranoid about that because of the fact there has not been an actor to play Batman 3 times before and with his on set rant (which I found to be hilarious because lets be real here, most of us have these days) the studio might not want him back. Well thank god Nolan is more or less in charge.