SomeFrenchToast wrote:

Mindheist wrote: ''Fear is why you fail''....''I'm not afraid I'm angry'', then later the prisoner saying you need fear and Bruce admitting he fears death.
Both Alfred and Bane telling Bruce that Bane was a man when he escaped the prison but then a vision told Bruce that Bane was the child.
Blake saying ''you're going to let then die without hope.'' This doesn't really count but I felt like mentioning anyway.

I don't see how the fear line messes up the story. The prisoner says fear is why Bruce fails because he doesn't fear it.

It's not because we see a vision that Bruce sees it. Seriously? You think he'd guess the child's appearance like this? And when did Alfred say Bane was a man when he escaped? He said he was raised in the prison and then trained by Ra's, but he never mentionned when.

And I don't see what Blake's line has to do here.

Caekzor wrote:Selina isn't going to waste a bullet on Dagget when she has to fight off a group of Bane's men.

Mindheist wrote:

SomeFrenchToast wrote:
I don't see how the fear line messes up the story. The prisoner says fear is why Bruce fails because he doesn't fear it.

It's not because we see a vision that Bruce sees it. Seriously? You think he'd guess the child's appearance like this? And when did Alfred say Bane was a man when he escaped? He said he was raised in the prison and then trained by Ra's, but he never mentionned when.

And I don't see what Blake's line has to do here.

Its hard to understand that. Fears what?

Bruce was convinced Bane was the child who escaped. Alfred said the word's men and man which pretty much paints the picture, then Bane later confirmed that fact.

Because of there being a ton of exposition of why there can be no true despair without hope, but that line doesn't really count.

Caekzor wrote:Selina isn't going to waste a bullet on Dagget when she has to fight off a group of Bane's men.

I know, as I said there are small explanations for these lines but I still think they're just there to sound cool.

Reaveybeach wrote:Rises is a visual film, it's about grand scenes and spectacle, like in the silent area of film. Where the visuals were everything and carried the film completely. You don't complain about the scene were Alfred sees Bruce sitting there in the cafe and say "Oh, well, how did they find each other? That's a really weird coincidence, that's weird!". No, it's about the point it's trying to make, I may sound hypocritical saying this, but it's just not about the logic of it. When you watch a film like Zero Dark Thirty for instance, it's about the plot, it's about the narrative, very basic, very straightforward. It's like, this happens, then this happens, that that happens. That's a type of movie where you can just go, like, "what? :neutral: That doesn't make sense". But when you're talking about 'Rises' it's all about the presentation, plot holes and nit picking is fun, when that particular film is rotten to the core. But when the films core is solid, is emotional, it's not really a bad thing imo, plot holes are forgivable. I mean, Terminator 2 has plot holes, and that's a great movie, lot's of movies have plot-holes, it doesn't make them bad movies perse. You have this entire city locked down, the bridges are shot to hell, Bruce in some hell hole on the other side of the planet and no one can get in, or out of Gotham. Then Bruce just shows up in Gotham, Batman walks out of the mist, and a giant flaming bat is on the bridge. But it's not about HOW, he got back, it's that HE'S BACK!,he has returned. And that's really the truth of it, It's almost like a fairy tail in some ways, "oh, how do hansel and gretel really follow all those bread crumbs? Technically birds would eat them, or they would blow away, they would never find their way back". But it's the fact that they follow them, that's the important part. it's all about the presentation, and some people are really pissed at that. And that's kind of the truth, some films you can recognize plot holes, because of the logical way they are presented, but if a movie is more artistic, more poetic the plot-holes can be forgiven imo. Because 'Rises' is not about the plot, it's not about how Bane blows up Gotham, it's about the dark knight, rising. It's about a character moving on with his life.

TL;DR

Christopher Nolan is an overrated hack

SomeFrenchToast wrote:

Mindheist wrote:
Its hard to understand that. Fears what?

Bruce was convinced Bane was the child who escaped. Alfred said the word's men and man which pretty much paints the picture, then Bane later confirmed that fact.

Because of there being a ton of exposition of why there can be no true despair without hope, but that line doesn't really count.



I know, as I said there are small explanations for these lines but I still think they're just there to sound cool.

Fear death, it's in your own message. If you can't even follow the conversation, I don't see why we bother...

And what the "I'm not bluffing" and "They just don't care" dialog has to do with any inconsistancy regarding Selina not shooting Daggett? Like you said, you think these lines are there to sound cool, yet you're talking about the actions as an argument, wtf?

Also, I'm curious to see those expositions proving that Bane is wrong about the no true despair without hope thing.

Mindheist wrote:

SomeFrenchToast wrote:
Fear death, it's in your own message. If you can't even follow the conversation, I don't see why we bother...

And what the "I'm not bluffing" and "They just don't care" dialog has to do with any inconsistancy regarding Selina not shooting Daggett? Like you said, you think these lines are there to sound cool, yet you're talking about the actions as an argument, wtf?

Also, I'm curious to see those expositions proving that Bane is wrong about the no true despair without hope thing.

Well I said that Bruce says he does fear death. I thought you were trying to make a different point. I don't think what you said was true since Bruce also says the complete opposite when saying ''I'm not afraid...'' ''I do fear death''. I've said this already.

Yes I think they're inconsistent and don't fit in the script well, yet I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm expecting reasonable opinions on these things.

In my opinion, I didn't think there was anything in the film that says Bane was wrong. For me Blake's line seemed connected, disagreeing with Bane's philosophy but there was no exposition for that line. I think exposition disagreeing with Bane would just overflow the film but this line still doesn't count as an inconsistency for me simply because it can easily be ignored other than the other lines, and that it can be a different philosophy for children.

nolannolanchrischris wrote:

Mindheist wrote:
Well I said that Bruce says he does fear death. I thought you were trying to make a different point. I don't think what you said was true since Bruce also says the complete opposite when saying ''I'm not afraid...'' ''I do fear death''. I've said this already.

Yes I think they're inconsistent and don't fit in the script well, yet I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm expecting reasonable opinions on these things.

In my opinion, I didn't think there was anything in the film that says Bane was wrong. For me Blake's line seemed connected, disagreeing with Bane's philosophy but there was no exposition for that line. I think exposition disagreeing with Bane would just overflow the film but this line still doesn't count as an inconsistency for me simply because it can easily be ignored other than the other lines, and that it can be a different philosophy for children.

I'm only going to comment on the "fear" and the man/child points. Alfred comments only on rumors about Bane, he never comments on when he escaped exactly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhQnQAt0ECk) because he doesn't know. When Bane is kicking Bruce's ass in the sewers, I can't really believe that Bruce is taking in every last word because he's a little preoccupied, but fine. When he's in the prison, Bruce asks Tom Conti's character if Bane was the child, and there is no confirmation of that from Conti's character. He just goes on to describe the "legend" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyXEr8lS2dw), because he wasn't even there himself. Bruce just lets himself believe Bane is the child. Then he has a vision, which is clearly a product of his own thoughts. Really the doctor is the only one who knows who the child is and he says that the story shouldn't be told. His motivations are kind of ambiguous throughout, at least to me.

If you don't know about Talia beforehand, as is the case with most of the audience, you're not really going to question the direction of where things are going during the 1st viewing. Bane's story is only told through rumors and legend at first, by people who are clearly not firsthand witnesses, and then you begin to follow Bruce's own train of thought. If you listened to what Bane said during the fight and held on to every last word throughout the rest of the movie, kudos to you. Because like Batman, most people watching are more preoccupied by the brutal asskicking taking place. Obviously in retrospect you can go back and notice all of the hints pointing to the identity of the child.

Just like Bruce doesn't get or pursue a definitive explanation from Tom Conti's character, he just assumes that the doctor thinks he is afraid of falling when he says "fear is why you fail/fell." He doesn't wait for him to explain. When Bruce says "I'm not afraid" he means it, he's not afraid of falling during the climb. He falls again, then the doctor does explain the fear of death is necessary to make the climb. Bruce says he fears death, but again ... not while making the climb, just sitting around in the pit doing nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXxw-zXRqOs) The doctor knows this is not the fear that is going to help him make the jump so he tells him not to use the rope.

Really the doctor is the only one who knows who the child is and he says that the story shouldn't be told. His motivations are kind of ambiguous throughout, at least to me.

Juggleguy wrote:Oh wait, he didn't have access to the Bat yet because Fox was still being held captive.