Maybe Cobb and Saito got out of Limbo by the machine in reality hitting the deadline and turning off. The threat of Limbo seems to be that you can go crazy and accept it as reality, and that when you return to the real world your brain "would be mush" as one of the characters said. The scene between Saito and Cobb seems to imply that their meeting causes them to realize that the world they are in is fake, and thus they can wait out Limbo and return to the real world once the 10 hours has expired.

Who knows, this opinion will probably change by tomorrow.

Limbo is most definitely level 4, meaning there is no level 5 and 6, etc.

Mal and Cobb were experimenting with dream states and they kept going lower and lower until they reached limbo (on the shores of their subconscious) without understanding how time extends in every level...suggesting that even limbo, the time gets longer. In his explanation, he doesn't say how many levels they went. Up till this point, it would seem that it could be 10 or 30 (though unlikely as the dreams keep getting more unstable).

We know from the heist that every time they go deeper in a dream state, the deeper into their own subconscious they all go. Therefore, eventually, as long as the dream states are stable enough as they go deeper, they can reach their own full subconscious.... limbo. This happened with Cobb and Ariadne. Because they hooked themselves up to a machine (which came from where, exactly? lol) in Level 3 in the snow tower they reached their furthest DREAM state which is the subconscious.

Obviously limbo is threatening. They say that if you die, you can go there and be lost. Yusuf states that it could be 50 years or Infinite... but then he says "I don't know...ask Cobb" since he has been there before. Whats interesting is that the information about Cobb and Mal's time in limbo can not give us any reference whatsoever to how time works in limbo because we do not have any context around it. Sedative? How long the machine's timer was set to?" How many levels they went down? They were there for 50 years, but he doesn't know how much longer they would have been there until the machine ran out of time and stopped injecting them with the dream sharing drug.

The only indication we are given is when Cobb said that he didn't YET understand how time worked in dream states and the deeper they went including subconscious, that it compounded... and there is no indication to believe that limbo has it's own time rules. Quite the contrary (as previously argued in the post).

Mal and Cobb were in limbo, by choice, but also by accident. There was no way to leave limbo from a kick, cause they didn't plan any or have others in previous states to do so. The only way of doing so was to wait (only god...Nolan...know's how long they were in their room on the floor...days even? Probably not, but who knows is the point to be made). The other way was to die. Killing themselves (suicide) gives no indication that that is the only way to leave limbo. Cobb could just have easily killed Mal then himself. Remember that they might not have been under the same rules (meaning sedative). If they weren't under a sedative and only a stronger dream sharing drug, then death would have woken them up... not send to limbo. Therefore, any death would have woken them up. Therefore, with this information, we do not know if under sedative, killing yourself in limbo would wake you up into full reality. It seems to me highly unlikely, because it is a stretch for the audience to imply narration where there is none.

Now in the heist, we know that they are under sedative as well as a strong dream sharing drug. Just dying would do nothing but send you to limbo. The movie doesn't imply any special narration of what would happen when you die in limbo. The movie kind of insinuates that limbo is the epic of the subconcious... that there is no further DREAM state. (it leaves open of whether there is a further state outside of the dream realm...fully unaware unconsciousness) It doesn't set any information up to answer the question, "What happens if you die in limbo? They are still sedated.)

Fact: The only way to wake up from a dream under the sedation (which impaires all but the inner ear function) is to have the feeling of falling in the previous dream state... by being pulled... as read from the guy who plays Yusuf and how the movie suggests it.

Fact: what we know from the movie is that limbo is threatening. But the only way it is suggested as threatening is the amount of time you may spend in it before the sedative wears off. Remember that when this is said, they are saying that the only way they would enter limbo is by dying in a previous state, not by choice (that isn't comprehended yet). There would be no kick to pull you out because there were none set up for it. You would be in limbo by yourself and on your own to figure out what to do or be lost until you turn to scrambled eggs.

Fact: Cobb and Ariadne went to limbo by choice by going under in level 3
Fact: Both Fischer and Saito went to limbo by death, not by choice
Fact: Once in Limbo, we know that Cobb and Ariadne know they are in limbo but we are unsure of the state of both Robert Fischer and Saito... suggesting that they would be lost.
Fact: Cobb and Ariadne could leave by choice (through a kick) and Ariadne did so or they would not have gone there in the first place. Ariadne would never have suggested they go get Fischer.
Fact: Fischer rode out of Limbo through one of two possible push or pull kicks (he did not commit suicide (Ariadne pushed him.. aka. murder if anything).
Fact: We never see Ariadne fall to her death. She could have, but she could also not have. Still, the movie suggests (not meaning fact) that she woke up in the fortress prior to hitting the ground. Even still, she left limbo aware that she was leaving, meaning a kick didn't pull her out unexpectedly.

Now, from all this, I can only reach one conclusion, even though it means that I must add narration to Nolan's missing pieces.

Implication 1: Saito is lost in limbo. He creates his own world and Cobb has to find him.
Implication 2: Fischer is lost in limbo. He doesn't know what the f*** is going on and needs Ariadne's help.
Implication 3: The kick of the falling building can not pull one out of limbo or Cobb would have been pulled out.
Implication 4: This movie has errors.

Arthur is an error for the Pull theory, which I believe exists now which leads to a B.S. narration that because he is a pro, he can chose not to feel a kick or B the first kick was never meant to be a kick (which I will find out on viewing 4)

Dying (suicide or otherwise) from within limbo would send you into either a deeper dream state, limbo 2 (which is all together B.S.) or just a deeper state altogether... the fully unconscious. The later seems to be the most logical (how ironic, lol), though the film suggests that death would bring up to the previous dream state as Ariadne was going to shoot Cobb after pushing Fischer from the building and prior to jumping herself. No one...not even Cobb knows for sure what happens if you die in limbo while under a sedative cause he has never been to limbo while under a sedative (as suggested, not factual).
That still means that all of them probably went to fully unconsciousness, though this creates its own inconsistencies so it probably isn't real. Somehow, when Ariadne jumped from the building, she woke up in the previous dream state which either pulled her or is falling for no reason whatsoever... a trial kick (though suggested otherwise in the film). If she diedand went to the unconscious or further state, he falling building would fail to pull her out of it because it would either be too far away to feel it or she is no longer consciously dreaming... feeling the kick. Im stopping here for now as none will read this long response anyway. lol

My big question is why are Cobb and Eames setting charges in level 3 before Ariadne mentions going after Fischer in limbo? Doesn't make much sense to me.

bmneu, that's a great post...I like your factual approach, but I don't buy the Pull/Push Kick thing as per my earlier post.

Fact: the movie only describes one type of Kick (the pull kick) which comes from a higher level up

You've offered a great number of answers to some lingering questions I had but let me ask you- If Level 4 is indeed limbo and not a separate dream state aside from Limbo, then why would Cobb remember what is going on and then randomly in the same dream state forget everything before he runs into Saito?

The way I see it, there is a transition that the audience isn't shown from the Level 4 Dream state into Limbo...and with that transition comes the loss of cognizance or ability to discern what is real vs. the limbo world.

The other question I had is going back to what I mentioned before, the movie only describes one type of Kick. We see Fischer emerge from Level 4 because of the Defibrillator, that is an adequate kick, but what about Ariadne? She just jumps out the window. I am more inclined to believe she died and was thusly revived into the Level 3 dreamstate and chalk it up to the sedative having worn down at that point.


Edit to add: I also like your 4th implication, that this movie is simply erroneous as much as I don't want to admit it. But that's OK...great film and having just seen it for my second time I am still thrilled with the way it turned out...definitely exceeded all expectations

So does anyone understand why they would blow up the hospital in level 3 before they decided to go after fischer?

Those who are complaining about Arthur not waking up when the van goes over the bridge need to remember that Leo resists the kick at the beginning of the movie. It's when he hits the water that he wakes up. Same as Arthur. We've all resisted waking up from a dream at some point in our lives I'm sure.

SPAWNmaster wrote:bmneu, that's a great post...I like your factual approach, but I don't buy the Pull/Push Kick thing as per my earlier post.

Fact: the movie only describes one type of Kick (the pull kick) which comes from a higher level up

You've offered a great number of answers to some lingering questions I had but let me ask you- If Level 4 is indeed limbo and not a separate dream state aside from Limbo, then why would Cobb remember what is going on and then randomly in the same dream state forget everything before he runs into Saito?

The way I see it, there is a transition that the audience isn't shown from the Level 4 Dream state into Limbo...and with that transition comes the loss of cognizance or ability to discern what is real vs. the limbo world.

The other question I had is going back to what I mentioned before, the movie only describes one type of Kick. We see Fischer emerge from Level 4 because of the Defibrillator, that is an adequate kick, but what about Ariadne? She just jumps out the window. I am more inclined to believe she died and was thusly revived into the Level 3 dreamstate and chalk it up to the sedative having worn down at that point.


Edit to add: I also like your 4th implication, that this movie is simply erroneous as much as I don't want to admit it. But that's OK...great film and having just seen it for my second time I am still thrilled with the way it turned out...definitely exceeded all expectations

Let me correct my thoughts on Limbo and lead to a new theory/narrative:
Limbo is a dream state, but is the only one that is threatening; Limbo is threatening in only one way....you are lost... meaning you have replaced the consciousness of the dream state as your new reality.
When I said that it was threatening due to the amount of time you can be in limbo, I don't think that was really all that accurate. What is threatening about the time is both: the sedation and the dream level.
I think that the term "Limbo" refers to being lost (replaced with new reality) more than anything and can happen at any dream level if it becomes your reality. If you are stuck in a dream in Level 1 and you forget it is a dream, you are in limbo... but it just isn't that threatening because you'll soon wake up and just be a little confused if it was a dream or not. The further level you go, the easier it is to being in a "limbo" state and replacing that dream state with reality. Once in Level 4, it is the easiest to get lost because it is your fully subconscious state. Entering that fully subconscious state or level consciously, as Cobb and Ariadne did, is a paradox on its own, which means that while you are not initially lost, its fully probable that you will sooner or later get lost (though the paradox is that your conscious state should be nullified by your fully subconscious state...or it really isn't a fully subconscious state).

Now with your first question: Remember that they are in a shared dream. To put it in better terms they are in a shared consciousness/subconsciousness. In the fully subconscious state, there is nothing until you start filling it...creating (whether, paradoxically, consciously or subconsciously). Cobb has done this in the past and recognizes it as his subconscious. Seido then starts to fill it with his own subconsciousness as he has already been lost in it. Cobb does not recognize this and is easier lost to it as we see his delirium with it at this point. Therefore I agree with you that the transition is not really visible, though think it differently. I don't think that they went any further than level four, but I think that leo went from knowing it was his subconscious state to beginning to think it was reality.

Have you ever had a dream that when you wake up, you don't know if it was a dream or if it happened during the night or, perhaps, the day or week or month prior? Now imagine how difficult it would be to wake up from a dream that lasted for decades in your head. It would make it all the more challenging to decipher. The more lost you are in your dream, literally, when you wake up you either accept the fact that it was a dream, or you refuse it and are "scrambled eggs"

EDIT: and no matter how flawed I think it actually is...IT IS THE GREATEST MOVIE I HAVE EVER SEEN!!! I love it...and hate it at the same time, lol. Oh Nolan.

paladinryan wrote:Those who are complaining about Arthur not waking up when the van goes over the bridge need to remember that Leo resists the kick at the beginning of the movie. It's when he hits the water that he wakes up. Same as Arthur. We've all resisted waking up from a dream at some point in our lives I'm sure.

Haha, true, but not by choice. Off topic, I've never had that feeling of falling without waking up, but I've had the feeling that I couldn't move in my (very real) dream and wondered why until I woke up all strained trying to get up and couldn't wake from my dreaming reality.

Other side note: I've been told that new research shows that events in a dream happen in real time, that the only reason why your brain appears to work faster is because of the "creation" side of it, meaning your subconscious brain works harder to keep up with your real time conscious thought in your dream.

Good writeup, and I did read it to see if I would 100% agree with someone else's thoughts on the kicks. Almost, but not quite.

bmneu wrote:Fact: Cobb and Ariadne went to limbo by choice by going under in level 3

Right. Ariadne convinces Cobb to continue with the mission.

bmneu wrote:Fact: Both Fischer and Saito went to limbo by death, not by choice

Yep. Saito was shot on level 1 by the projections. His demise was slowed by going to deeper dream levels but he succumbed on level 3. Fischer got shot by Cobb's out of control subconscious manifested as Mal on level 3.

bmneu wrote:Fact: Once in Limbo, we know that Cobb and Ariadne know they are in limbo but we are unsure of the state of both Robert Fischer and Saito... suggesting that they would be lost.

Almost. Cobb knew that Saito would be lost in limbo somewhere but he was certain that he could find him and bring him back. After all, he would need to do so in order to avoid spending the rest of his life in jail and never seeing his kids again. However, he knew exactly where Fischer would be: with Mal. Mal wants him to stay with her in limbo for an eternity and knows that Cobb will be coming for Fischer. They do share the same brain after all.

bmneu wrote:Fact: Cobb and Ariadne could leave by choice (through a kick) and Ariadne did so or they would not have gone there in the first place. Ariadne would never have suggested they go get Fischer.

Through a pull-kick in combination with death could they leave limbo. "Normally" death is the way to go, as discovered by Mal & Cobb. But a pull-kick is also required due to Yusuf's designer sedative. I believe that the pull-kick is necessary so that the lucid-dreaming part of the mind can find its way back to "constructed" dream space. Ariadne believes that they can ride Eames kick back from limbo and says as much before going under. Eames reminds them that he won't be waiting for them if they aren't on time.

Cobb already knows that dying will be required because of his experience. We can assume that he filled Ariadne in on this little detail on the stroll to Cobb and Mal's old apartment. Nolan doesn't show you this because he knew people would be bitching about too much exposition. This isn't too much of a leap (pun not intended) to believe because of the events in Mal & Cobb's apartment. Cobb alerts Ariadne of the kick and tells her that she needs to go. Which she eventually obliges by pushing Fischer out of the window and jumping to her death. But not before pointing the gun at Cobb, which we can assume was to kill him so that he'd come along on the pull-kick too. Cobb convinces her that would be bad and he stays in limbo to find Saito. The pull-kick, by itself, was not enough to bring Cobb back to level 3 with Ariadne and Fischer.

bmneu wrote:Fact: Fischer rode out of Limbo through one of two possible push or pull kicks (he did not commit suicide (Ariadne pushed him.. aka. murder if anything).

It was the pull-kick created by Eames in combination with Fischer's assisted suicide courtesy of Ariadne. It doesn't matter that it wasn't his choice. He hadn't been in limbo for very long and as such, hadn't yet accepted it as his reality. i.e. no scrambled eggs for brains.

bmneu wrote:Fact: We never see Ariadne fall to her death. She could have, but she could also not have. Still, the movie suggests (not meaning fact) that she woke up in the fortress prior to hitting the ground. Even still, she left limbo aware that she was leaving, meaning a kick didn't pull her out unexpectedly.

She hit the ground and died in limbo, but she was fully aware of the synchronized kick from Eames up above. The kick is what dictated when she jumped, at the urging of Cobb. The editing of the film doesn't have to show her hitting the ground for it to be true, and I assumed that her eyes opened on level 3 after it happened.

bmneu wrote:Now, from all this, I can only reach one conclusion, even though it means that I must add narration to Nolan's missing pieces.

Implication 1: Saito is lost in limbo. He creates his own world and Cobb has to find him.
Implication 2: Fischer is lost in limbo. He doesn't know what the f*** is going on and needs Ariadne's help.
Implication 3: The kick of the falling building can not pull one out of limbo or Cobb would have been pulled out.
Implication 4: This movie has errors.

1: Yes!
2: Yes! He's royally fucked!
3: Correct! Eames' kick from level 3 could have pulled him up if he synchronized his death with the kick. But he had to find Saito so he stayed behind.
4: Wait, what? No! I think that it's all shown to the viewer, but you have to figure it out a bit as our protagonists go deeper. As the characters understanding of their situation goes, so does the viewers. They feel lost and so do we.

bmneu wrote:Arthur is an error for the Pull theory, which I believe exists now which leads to a B.S. narration that because he is a pro, he can chose not to feel a kick or B the first kick was never meant to be a kick (which I will find out on viewing 4)

Which kick are you referring to? Arthur is never supposed to "feel" a kick when the van hits the barricade right before it goes over the bridge and into free-fall. The plan is for Yusuf to put the headphones on a sleeping Arthur in the van right before he drives off the bridge. This is intended to signal Arthur to initiate a pull-kick to bring everyone at level 3 up with him at level 2. With everyone on level 2, the kick created when the van hits the water (the only one that Arthur is intended to "feel") is supposed to pull them all up to level 1 where they will share oxygen in the submerged van before waiting for the dream machine on the 747 to hit 00:00.

However, things don't go according to plan. Usuf is taking unexpectedly heavy fire in the van on level 1 and rushes the job. He plays the music too early for Arthur who can't get back to the hotel room in time (he's handling some baddies at the time) to detonate the explosives to drop everyone through the hotel floor to pull-kick them back from level 3. With the van now in free-fall, Arthur needs to find another way to do his one job: create the kick on level 2 that brings everyone from level 3 back up with him. Zero-g high jinks ensue.

Just to be clear: the act of the van hitting the barricade on the bridge before going over is NOT the kick that the characters are talking about in the dialog. The reason that the characters at level 3 realize that they "missed" a kick is because they didn't wake up in the hotel room at the time of the avalanche! Please ignore the misleading "levels" diagram on Cinemablend!

bmneu wrote:Dying (suicide or otherwise) from within limbo would send you into either a deeper dream state, limbo 2 (which is all together B.S.) or just a deeper state altogether... the fully unconscious.

Dying in limbo while under sedation and no synchronized pull-kick just leads to more limbo. Maybe you find yourself washing up on a shore and being taken hostage by guards? It seems plausible enough.