I said this in another thread, and I want to say it here to clear something up.


I don't think limbo is an alternate level. Limbo is a state of mind. When you have lost the fact that you are in a dream, you are in limbo. You have to be reminded that you are dreaming to come out of limbo.

So Mal and Cobb were on an ordinary (though very deep) level. But since they built from memories, and Mal got rid of her totem, she forgot they were dreaming, and put herself in a limbo state of mind.

When Saito died (he technically died on every level at the exact same moment), he would have normally gone from level 1 to awake. But since he was under the drugs, he got sent to the first, deepest level that had never been touched by any of the other dreamers. It was "limbo" for him because it was built entirely of his subconscious (ie, his memories), and it would have been impossible for him to recognize it was a dream. When Cobb got to that level, he could tell it was a dream because it was all built by Saito. So Saito was in limbo, but Cobb wasn't. Or maybe he was in a weak limbo state, but because he was there for such a short time before seeing both Saito and his totem, he was able to come out of it more quickly. He reminded Saito of where he was, and that brought him out of the limbo state of mind.

So there really aren't any "unknown rules" to limbo. The only difference is, because you are so deep, you have to understand you are dreaming when you die, otherwise you'd just go deeper. And, if you aren't certain what level you are on, like in Saito's case, you can't be for sure what the time difference is between earlier levels.

kyuen1 wrote:The only thing I found a bit hazy is the part with the pull-kick with Ariadne in Level 4; there was always a kind of inconsistency in the movie with her throwing herself off the building and Eames blowing up the fortress, since they seem to serve the same purpose (get people out of Level 4). I don't think that they necessarily needed both the kick and death to get out of Limbo; otherwise, how did Cobb and Mal get out the first time? There was another suggestion that he blew up the fortress to signal to the people in Level 4 that it was time to get out, as Eames had no other way of communicating with them.

The only time limbo is escaped in the film is through death: Mal & Cobb, Ariadne & Fischer, Cobb & Saito.

The pull-kick may be needed from Eames in level 3 because of the sedation being used. Without the pull-kick, Ariadne & Fischer's death in limbo would have sent them to a further limbo state (we have to assume that this is how Cobb washes up on the shore of Saito's unconsciousness). Taken a different way, the pull-kick from level 3 does provide a signal of sorts so that the lucid parts of their mind know where to go to find the constructed dream space of level 3 after dieing. I think that Eames blew up the fortress because he was just doing all that he knew how to do: apply the kick. Only Cobb had any extensive knowledge of limbo and had visited there before.

We know that a pull-kick alone isn't sufficient to bring someone back from limbo, as can be seen with Cobb staying behind to pursue Saito and relinquish his subconscious of Mal, even after the fortress explosion.

Mal & Cobb were able to get out of limbo the first time through death probably because they weren't under the influence of Yusuf's designer sedative. They killed themselves at each successive level to return to reality. The only problem was, Mal never thought that they went high enough.

Spurple wrote:I said this in another thread, and I want to say it here to clear something up.


I don't think limbo is an alternate level. Limbo is a state of mind. When you have lost the fact that you are in a dream, you are in limbo. You have to be reminded that you are dreaming to come out of limbo.

So Mal and Cobb were on an ordinary (though very deep) level. But since they built from memories, and Mal got rid of her totem, she forgot they were dreaming, and put herself in a limbo state of mind.

When Saito died (he technically died on every level at the exact same moment), he would have normally gone from level 1 to awake. But since he was under the drugs, he got sent to the first, deepest level that had never been touched by any of the other dreamers. It was "limbo" for him because it was built entirely of his subconscious (ie, his memories), and it would have been impossible for him to recognize it was a dream. When Cobb got to that level, he could tell it was a dream because it was all built by Saito. So Saito was in limbo, but Cobb wasn't. Or maybe he was in a weak limbo state, but because he was there for such a short time before seeing both Saito and his totem, he was able to come out of it more quickly. He reminded Saito of where he was, and that brought him out of the limbo state of mind.

So there really aren't any "unknown rules" to limbo. The only difference is, because you are so deep, you have to understand you are dreaming when you die, otherwise you'd just go deeper. And, if you aren't certain what level you are on, like in Saito's case, you can't be for sure what the time difference is between earlier levels.

No Limbo is definitely a place and not just a state of mind. Pay attention to when they first bring it up, they describe it as something like the edge of your subconcious.

Jarmel wrote:No Limbo is definitely a place and not just a state of mind. Pay attention to when they first bring it up, they describe it as something like the edge of your subconcious.

Well you could be on the edge of your subconscious on level 1 if you only built from memories and forgot you were in a dream. You'd just be living off your subconscious, with nothing to pull you back. Wasn't that why it was such a danger to build from memories? Because it could make it impossible for you to know where you were?

If it was a place, how did Cobb know he was in limbo with both Mal and Saito? And why would he spend such a long time with Mal before realizing they had to come out?

Spurple wrote:

Jarmel wrote:No Limbo is definitely a place and not just a state of mind. Pay attention to when they first bring it up, they describe it as something like the edge of your subconcious.

Well you could be on the edge of your on level subconscious if you only built from memories and forgot you were in a dream. You'd just be living off your subconscious. Wasn't that why it was such a danger to build from memories? Because it could make it impossible for you to know where you were?

If it was a place, how did Cobb know he was in limbo with both Mal and Saito? And why would he spend such a long time with Mal before realizing they had to come out?

Again they state quite clearly that Limbo is nothing but just pure dream space that exists at the edge of your mind. Arthur snaps this info at Cobb in the warehouse when Cobb mentions that they get stuck in Limbo if they die. Cobb and Mal lost their sense of reality because they had kept pushing how far they could go. It's dangerous because you can lose your grasp on reality and the time dilation effect can burn your mind out.

Spurple wrote:I don't think limbo is an alternate level. Limbo is a state of mind. When you have lost the fact that you are in a dream, you are in limbo. You have to be reminded that you are dreaming to come out of limbo.

Limbo is a separate level. It's described as pure subconscious, "unconstructed" dream space. It differs from the other levels because it wasn't designed by an architect and "built" ahead of time by any dreamer. A person in limbo knows, at first, that they are in limbo. But with no way out (like Saito under a sedative), or no reason to leave (like Cobb and Mal's adventures in limbo), they eventually accept it as there reality.

Spurple wrote: When Saito died (he technically died on every level at the exact same moment), he would have normally gone from level 1 to awake. But since he was under the drugs, he got sent to the first, deepest level that had never been touched by any of the other dreamers. It was "limbo" for him because it was built entirely of his subconscious (ie, his memories), and it would have been impossible for him to recognize it was a dream. When Cobb got to that level, he could tell it was a dream because it was all built by Saito. So Saito was in limbo, but Cobb wasn't. Or maybe he was in a weak limbo state, but because he was there for such a short time before seeing both Saito and his totem, he was able to come out of it more quickly. He reminded Saito of where he was, and that brought him out of the limbo state of mind.

The key part that I think you are missing is that limbo is a shared subconscious level with everyone hooked up to the machine who "goes that low." It may have been built from the memories of those who occupy that space (previously only Mal & Cobb before Saito), or constructed from "new" inspiration.

So when Cobb is dragged in, delirious, to see old Saito; they are in the same limbo the Mal & Cobb had occupied a long time ago. But Saito had been there for many decades in "limbo-time" and had constructed his palace (likely from memory) and had long accepted it as his reality, much like Mal had. It took them seeing each other, the site of Cobb's totem, and the lines they repeat to one another for the both of them to remember what the hell was going on.

Here's my take on the Levels and Limbo

Level one is Subconscious level 1, meaning that you are still half in reality (meaning feeling every bump of the plane and hearing certain things, etc.)

The further you go the more clear you are in your own subconscious, meaning the further from reality you go (not delirium). Limbo is part of your SUBconscious. I think killing yourself in limbo just sends you to fully UNconscious, a lack of dreaming.

So...

Reality = Conscious
Dreaming Levels = Corresponding Subconscious Levels
Limbo = Fully Subconscious
Beyond Limbo = Unconscious/no time/space

bmneu wrote:This is my first "meh" reaction to your theory. I remember quite well that the van hitting the barricade on the bridge caused an avalanche in Level 3 and Cobb says that they "missed it" as in the kick, but not to worry cause there is another one, when the van hits the water.

It was a kick, a failed one, to Cobb and everyone else down on level 3. They knew that they missed it because they didn't wake up on a pile of rubble in the hotel room.

Cobb saying "not to worry" shows how much faith he had in Arthur to find a way to drop them despite the obvious difficulties he was having.

Jarmel wrote:Again they state quite clearly that Limbo is nothing but just pure dream space that exists at the edge of your mind. Arthur snaps this info at Cobb in the warehouse when Cobb mentions that they get stuck in Limbo if they die. Cobb and Mal lost their sense of reality because they had kept pushing how far they could go. It's dangerous because you can lose your grasp on reality and the time dilation effect can burn your mind out.

Then why wouldn't Saito know right away that he was in limbo and had to kill himself, the way you claim Mal and Cobb knew? If Mal and Cobb only got lost because they kept exploring, Saito had no reason to explore. He had no reason to get lost. He should have known right away and killed himself.

A person in limbo knows, at first, that they are in limbo. But with no way out (like Saito under a sedative), or no reason to leave (like Cobb and Mal's adventures in limbo), they eventually accept it as there reality.

Now if Saito stayed in limbo because of sedatives, then how did killing himself bring him out? Are you saying that just by chance, right when Cobb showed up the drugs had worn off? On level 4, the plane ride would have lasted 180 years. If limbo is more dangerous then any level, Saito and Cobb should have still been stuck in limbo. Shooting themselves should have done nothing. And Cobb would have had to spend more time there. At the max, he couldn't have survived in level one for more than a couple minutes (since he was drowning). And a couple minutes at level one would have only been seconds in reality. They still had 8-10 hours of plane ride left, thousands and thousands of years in dream world. And if you say, there is nothing after limbo, and shooting yourself puts you to a normal sleep... why didn't Saito shoot himself right away?

It took them seeing each other, the site of Cobb's totem, and the lines they repeat to one another for the both of them to remember what the hell was going on.

But you just said a few sentences ago that when you go to limbo, you know at first. Saito should have known and killed himself.

EDIT: And I might be misremembering, but didn't Saito's guards say something to the effect of "He wanted to see you. He asked for you by name." Cobb knew where he was.

Spurple wrote: Then why wouldn't Saito know right away that he was in limbo and had to kill himself, the way you claim Mal and Cobb knew? If Mal and Cobb only got lost because they kept exploring, Saito had no reason to explore. He had no reason to get lost. He should have known right away and killed himself.

Now if Saito stayed in limbo because of sedatives, then how did killing himself bring him out? Are you saying that just by chance, right when Cobb showed up the drugs had worn off? On level 4, the plane ride would have lasted 131 years. If limbo is more dangerous then any plane ride, Saito and Cobb should have still been stuck in limbo. Shooting themselves should have done nothing. And Cobb would have had to spend more time there. At the max, he couldn't have survived in level one for more than a couple minutes (since he was drowning). And a couple minutes at level one would have only been seconds in reality. They still had 8-10 hours of plane ride left, thousands and thousands of years in dream world. And if you say, there is nothing after limbo, and shooting yourself puts you to a normal sleep... why didn't Saito shoot himself right away?

But you just said a few sentences ago that when you go to limbo, you know at first. Saito should have known and killed himself.

It’s quite possible Saito tried to kill himself but the sedative certainly hadn’t worn off at that point and by the time it might have, Saito could have just been burnt out. We only see Saito after a few decades had past in Limbo and Saito could just have easily have forgotten as he isn’t an expert like Cobb and even Cobb seems somewhat burnt out by the time we see him talking with Saito.

The drugs most likely wore off. Nobody is sure how time affects Limbo so they most likely spent decades possibly centuries there. Even Cobb almost forgot why he was there as the guards state he was delirious and if you look at his physical appearance he seems worn out. Cobb states something like "I'm supposed to remind you" which gives off the impression that he forgot why he was going after Saito. However we know from the whole movie both how determined Cobb is to get back to his family as well as how determined Saito is to keep his promise.