theweatherman wrote:However Araidne improvised by trying a kick within the dream and the sensation of falling caused her to wake up (like happens in many real dreams to us).
This would make both theories work, which brings together the inconsistency that any fall would push you to the next, being Yusif in the van.
When I used to fall off a bed when I was a kid, I used to wake up, but I am not sure if it was the falling or the damn impact. Nowadays I don't fall from my bed, but I wake up with a startling sensation that I am falling, only to be lying on my back perfectly in bed but with a loss of breath and a racing heart....therefore, in my own experiences, I wake up more from a PUSH kick than anything else.
bmneu wrote:As with the theory stated earlier on Killing yourself in Limbo allows you to be PULLed back from the falling fortress, I'm feeling it, but not completely satisfied. While I have seen the movie 3 times, I miss something I wish I hadn't every time.
Eams says something along the lines (in the tower before they go to limbo) that if the kick doesn't work, hes gone anyway. Similarly, he doesn't start setting up the charges until they go to limbo. His mission was to be a diverter for Fischers projections... so maybe the plan wasn't to blow up the fortress until they decided to go to limbo. When he says if it doesn't work, maybe that means that thye don't know that the kick won't pull them back from limbo but its worth the shot. In limbo, they see the warning (thunderstorm/resuscitation), which tells them the kick is about to come - that would be the fortress collapsing. When it does collapse, the buildings in limbo deteriorate and they aren't pulled out, so she "improvises" and jumps out the window.
This theory has it's own holes as before they knew whether the kick would work or not (in this theory), it doesn't make sense for Cobb to promise to stay in limbo to help find Saito (and how did he figure he died exactly?....) if he thought he would be pulled anyway...or was that his plan all along?
After seeing the film 3 times, the PUSH method seems to be expressed through the heist progression in my opinion even though I feel like it leaves its own holes and that the earlier kicks expressed a Pull method.
I don't know, any of this make sense to you?
To me your post sounds like it has filled a gap in the pull theory and made that more solid, but then you say you think the push makes more sense. You said that you thought it was the building collapsing that was the kick and that it didn't work all the way so Ariadne improvised and got out a different way. The pull makes much more sense for the rest of the dream worlds because it doesn't leave the van's kick without a result. The van pulls them out of level two. Just as the elevator pulls them out of level three.
As for Cobb's promise to stay for Saito, it seems an experienced extractor can avoid being woken up from a kick. This is why Arthur doesn't wake up immediately from the level 1 kicks, and in the opening sequence, Cobb doesn't wake up when the chair is tipped over, but only wakes up after he begins to drown in the bathtub. Cobb probably believed he could stay in limbo by choosing not to ride the kick back u to level 3.
I think the idea of the 'kick' might be becoming a little convoluted on this thread. While it is an interesting notion to think of the kick in terms of being a 'pull' or 'push'...in reality the movie only explicitly defines one sort of kick.
It is explained that in the event one cannot be roused from the normal dream state (ie through shakes or slaps or loud noise), you can induce the sensation of falling or use water in order to wake the individual from the dream. That is the kick. Subsequently, if you die in the dream then you can also wake up that way.
So if we think of it in these basic terms of what the kick is supposed to be (as far as I remember according to the film) we can easily explain for instance, how Ariadne jumped during the level 4 dream. There was no kick to "push" her out to level 3, she simply jumped out of the building and died and woke up in level 3 where the charges blew up and woke her to level 2, where she was pulled up via the van crashing into water (and so forth for the rest of the team).
I mention this example specifically because I've seen some talk of Ariadne's fall in level 4 itself being some sort of "push kick" to push her back out of level 3.
The way I see it, the only real kick defined in the movie is what is being called the "pull" kick. At the point in the movie where they are trying to bail out of level 4 I think it's safe to assume the sedatives would have worn off to not complicate that jump Ariadne made with any risk of dropping into 'limbo'. This evidence also supports how Fischer was brought back too. Of course looking at it that way, I'm assuming Cobb was only able to enter limbo because he has been over the edge at that point already and simply knows how to get there to find Saito.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion or understanding of the movie, this is just my take and what makes sense to me given the complexities of this amazing movie. I'll be seeing it for my second time early this week .
steveportee wrote:As for Cobb's promise to stay for Saito, it seems an experienced extractor can avoid being woken up from a kick. This is why Arthur doesn't wake up immediately from the level 1 kicks, and in the opening sequence, Cobb doesn't wake up when the chair is tipped over, but only wakes up after he begins to drown in the bathtub. Cobb probably believed he could stay in limbo by choosing not to ride the kick back u to level 3.
I think this can fill in the gaps for the most part, I just don't like having to fill in story like this. I guess it's because I have such high Nolan expectations (favorite director of course). We all do..what am I thinking. Still, I think there are gap holes either way. I will just need to accept that. It's a movie and a complex one at that. When you know a project inside and out as everyone involved with the production and editing would, its hard to look at it from an outside perspective that are seeing it for the first time... even the test screening wouldn't catch most of the plot holes as it seems most are found in a second and third screening. There just are plot holes and its acceptable... just disappointing.
Arthur mentions in Level 2 (the hotel, while everyone else is dreaming) "how do I kick everyone without gravity?" So we know that whatever Arthur tries to do in the hotel was supposed to be a kick.
In Level 3 (the fort), I'm thinking that I must have missed a piece of dialogue or something, because what was their plan to get out of Level 3? Was Eames planting explosives part of the plan all along?
Cilogy wrote:Arthur mentions in Level 2 (the hotel, while everyone else is dreaming) "how do I kick everyone without gravity?" So we know that whatever Arthur tries to do in the hotel was supposed to be a kick.
The argument isn't whether it is a kick, but if it is a PUSH kick or a PULL kick. That quote doesn't suggest one way or another.
Ok, people suggesting that you can make a kick happen in your current dream state to wake up... that just has to be wrong. If that were correct, everyone would have waken up by the water in the first level. Now I'm sure Nolan would allow for some plot holes here and there... but that is way too big of one. Not to mention, that would mean no one could ever jump into a swimming pool in a dream.
I think the only way to wake up is to die in that level, or get a kick in the previous level, or have the timer run out. If you say a kick in your level could wake you up, it creates the biggest, most unsatisfactory plot hole in the film. No way I can accept that.
Now with Fischer, the electrodes had to play a part. They wouldn't shock him back to life if it didn't mean anything, or if falling in level 4 would wake you up. Until we understand what the hell Eames was doing with those electrodes... I don't think we can understand how level 4 worked.
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