Jarmel wrote:It’s quite possible Saito tried to kill himself but the sedative certainly hadn’t worn off at that point and by the time it might have, Saito could have just been burnt out. We only see Saito after a few decades had past in Limbo and Saito could just have easily have forgotten as he isn’t an expert like Cobb and even Cobb seems somewhat burnt out by the time we see him talking with Saito.

The drugs most likely wore off. Nobody is sure how time affects Limbo so they most likely spent decades possibly centuries there. Even Cobb almost forgot why he was there as the guards state he was delirious and if you look at his physical appearance he seems worn out. Cobb states something like "I'm supposed to remin you" which almost gives off the impression that he forgot why he was going after Saito" However we know from the whole movie both how determined Cobb is to get back to his family as well as how determined Saito is to keep his promise.

I think Cobb being "delirious" would be easily explainable as Saito's subconscious not having a clue what Cobb was. Anything he said would have made no sense. And maybe Cobb pretended to be delirous, because then he wouldn't have to draw attention to himself, giving his subconscious reason to attack.

I'm pretty sure they did say Cobb asked for Saito specifically.


And to say the time in limbo is LESS EFFECTIVE than level 3 and 4... that just continues making limbo hella-lame. By your definition, limbo is such a non-threat that I don't understand why anyone would consider it a threat. How I see it, it's damning. When you are in limbo, you are definitely lost for a long ass time. By how you see it, you could get out of limbo within seconds. That loses all effect. Limbo is actually easier to be in than other levels (because you can still get lost in an ordinary level by building from memories).

Spurple wrote:Then why wouldn't Saito know right away that he was in limbo and had to kill himself, the way you claim Mal and Cobb knew? If Mal and Cobb only got lost because they kept exploring, Saito had no reason to explore. He had no reason to get lost. He should have known right away and killed himself.

The further you go into your subconscious, the further from reality you go. But just the nature of this replaces the subconscious nature with reality. Meaning that half way in the middle, its easier to get lost and switched around. In limbo, you are fully subconscious, therefore, its pretty much your new reality... unless you are fully trained that deep.

bmneu wrote:The further you go into your subconscious, the further from reality you go. But just the nature of this replaces the subconscious nature with reality. Meaning that half way in the middle, its easier to get lost and switched around. In limbo, you are fully subconscious, therefore, its pretty much your new reality... unless you are fully trained that deep.

The first time Cobb experienced "limbo" the way you see it was with Mal. He had no way of being trained to be that deep, and he even mentioned that they got their by mistake, through experimenting with what can be done in a dream. How did Cobb always know they were in limbo, if he should have been as inexperienced at it as Saito was?

Spurple wrote:He had no way of being trained to be that deep, and he even mentioned that they got their by mistake, through experimenting with what can be done in a dream. How did Cobb always know they were in limbo, if he should have been as inexperienced at it as Saito was?

remember that they got there by choice... going deeper and deeper. Saito and Fischer did not and would have been lost in their subconscious not consiously creating limbo, but from subconscious only. The limbo we saw was 1) constructed dream space from Mal and Cobb and 20 later on, constructed dream space from Saito. Meaning when Mal and Cobb got to limbo, there was nothing, but their subconscious built around them whatever they wanted. When in the heist, they got to limbo, that was left behind, but Cobb was no longer building or creating anything in limbo because he knew he was there and it was only the left over. Only Saito didn't know and therefore he started creating his own limbo..being shared with Mal and Cobbs limbo.

Note* I hate (or love) how convoluted it gets when trying to explain anything in this movie lmao.

Spurple wrote: I think Cobb being "delirious" would be easily explainable as Saito's subconscious not having a clue what Cobb was. Anything he said would have made no sense. And maybe Cobb pretended to be delirous, because then he wouldn't have to draw attention to himself, giving his subconscious reason to attack.

I'm pretty sure they did say Cobb asked for Saito specifically.


And to say the time in limbo is LESS EFFECTIVE than level 3 and 4... that just continues making limbo hella-lame. By your definition, limbo is such a non-threat that I don't understand why anyone would consider it a threat. How I see it, it's damning. When you are in limbo, you are definitely lost for a long ass time. By how you see it, you could get out of limbo within seconds. That loses all effect. Limbo is actually easier to be in than other levels (because you can still get lost in an ordinary level by building from memories).

Cobb looks like crap when we see him talking with Saito. The skin on his cheek looks pretty raw and he acts like he’s starving. He also seems slightly confused like he’s straining to remember. Cobb and Saito were sharing dreams so they would share Limbos.

We honestly don’t know how time is effected in Limbo. Yusuf specifically mentions in the warehouse that they don’t know how time is effected. They would be stuck there until the sedative wears off which could be centuries or infinity. For Cobb and Mal it was dangerous because by the time they got there, they were starting to lose track of reality(it was really Mal as Cobb implies that he knew it was false). There is also the possibility of WANTING to stay down there as you can be pretty much a god.

Spurple wrote:Then why wouldn't Saito know right away that he was in limbo and had to kill himself, the way you claim Mal and Cobb knew? If Mal and Cobb only got lost because they kept exploring, Saito had no reason to explore. He had no reason to get lost. He should have known right away and killed himself.

Part of this question you quoted me so I'll respond. Saito would have known right away that he was in limbo and perhaps did try to kill himself. Maybe repeatedly. But under the sedation, it was fruitless and likely took a psychological tole on him. Eventually, he accepted limbo as his reality and lived that way for many decades.

Spurple wrote:Now if Saito stayed in limbo because of sedatives, then how did killing himself bring him out? Are you saying that just by chance, right when Cobb showed up the drugs had worn off? On level 4, the plane ride would have lasted 180 years. If limbo is more dangerous then any level, Saito and Cobb should have still been stuck in limbo. Shooting themselves should have done nothing. And Cobb would have had to spend more time there. At the max, he couldn't have survived in level one for more than a couple minutes (since he was drowning). And a couple minutes at level one would have only been seconds in reality. They still had 8-10 hours of plane ride left, thousands and thousands of years in dream world. And if you say, there is nothing after limbo, and shooting yourself puts you to a normal sleep... why didn't Saito shoot himself right away?

I didn't say that killing yourself in limbo would put you under normal sleep. What I asserted is that dieing in limbo under sedative just leads to....more limbo. Your mind is essentially lost, unable to wakeup, and only capable of perceiving what you or someone else in that shared space had created. It is possible that Saito spent many more decades in limbo than Cobb. If it was Cobb's drowning death on level 1 that "officially" sent him to limbo, then he spent far less dream-time than Saito down there. No matter how long Cobb toiled in limbo before finally locating Saito, his lack of aging was likely due to his never completely accepting it as his reality.

Spurple wrote:EDIT: And I might be misremembering, but didn't Saito's guards say something to the effect of "He wanted to see you. He asked for you by name." Cobb knew where he was.

He knew where he was but he was struggling, having been beaten mentally (by years in limbo) while starved and physically beaten in the custody of Saito's goons. It was obvious to me on second viewing just how close Cobb was to failing the mission by succumbing to the limbo state.

jm9843 wrote:
He knew where he was but he was struggling, having been beaten mentally (by years in limbo) while starved and physically beaten in the custody of Saito's goons. It was obvious to me on second viewing just how close Cobb was to failing the mission by succumbing to the limbo state.

Actually I don't think he was beaten by the guards but was just physically worn out from searching for Saito. He was searching for Saito in a possibly infinite space. It could have taken centuries if not millenias to find Saito and even then it might have been pure luck in the end. Also I'm pretty sure Cobb would have died in the Level 3 explosion since it seems he never came out of Limbo(as seen by his body not waking in Level 1).

The scene between Saito and Cobb at the end is pretty cool because it seems that they are reminding each other of the promise.

bmneu wrote:remember that they got there by choice... going deeper and deeper. Saito and Fischer did not and would have been lost in their subconscious not consiously creating limbo, but from subconscious only.

Again, this takes away the threat of limbo. The only way limbo is dangerous is if you are sent there against your will while under sedatives? Which makes me wonder, why didn't they just have Saito choose to go to limbo? Then he wouldn't have gotten lost.

The limbo we saw was 1) constructed dream space from Mal and Cobb and 20 later on, constructed dream space from Saito. Meaning when Mal and Cobb got to limbo, there was nothing, but their subconscious built around them whatever they wanted. When in the heist, they got to limbo, that was left behind, but Cobb was no longer building or creating anything in limbo because he knew he was there and it was only the left over. Only Saito didn't know and therefore he started creating his own limbo..being shared with Mal and Cobbs limbo.

But when we got there in the heist, there was no Saito creation. If he had been there for the decades, maybe even centuries, shouldn't we have seen Saito much sooner? And wouldn't Mal have gone after him too, or even instead of Fischer, because he was the real important part of freeing Cobb from his crimes in reality? And how did Leo end up in the water again? I assumed it was because he had to go down another level to get to Saito, but you're saying he was already with Saito. If Saito was there for decades because he died a few minutes earlier, shouldn't Fischer also have aged considerably, since he was there a minute or two earlier than Cobb and Adriane?

Jarmel wrote:We honestly don’t know how time is effected in Limbo. Yusuf specifically mentions in the warehouse that they don’t know how time is effected. They would be stuck there until the sedative wears off which could be centuries or infinity. For Cobb and Mal it was dangerous because by the time they got there, they were starting to lose track of reality(it was really Mal as Cobb implies that he knew it was false). There is also the possibility of WANTING to stay down there as you can be pretty much a god.

Then we circle back to the fact that your definition means Limbo is much less dangerous than other levels time wise, because Saito and Cobb should have been under sedatives for hundreds (thousands, millions) of years. But nope, they both come right out of it with their minds intact.

Say I go to level 5, but I only planned it from a memory. I could get lost in that dream world, and be stuck at level 5 for millions of years.

Now on the reverse of that, lets say I go to limbo. It's completely untouched, so I can choose how to create it. And you say I would know I'm in limbo at first, so I'd just have to kill myself and get out of it. Limbo is less threatening than a poorly planned level 3, 4, 5, etc.


You guys keep answering questions that circle back to more questions, and when you answer those they negate your previously answered questions. All you're coming up with is that limbo really isn't that big of a threat. At least not any more than any other deep dream level.

jm9843 wrote:I didn't say that killing yourself in limbo would put you under normal sleep. What I asserted is that dieing in limbo under sedative just leads to....more limbo. Your mind is essentially lost, unable to wakeup, and only capable of perceiving what you or someone else in that shared space had created. It is possible that Saito spent many more decades in limbo than Cobb. If it was Cobb's drowning death on level 1 that "officially" sent him to limbo, then he spent far less dream-time than Saito down there. No matter how long Cobb toiled in limbo before finally locating Saito, his lack of aging was likely due to his never completely accepting it as his reality.

But that would mean limbo time isn't any longer than level 4 time. It might even be less. If limbo time equaled level 5, Dom and Saito would have been there for 3600 years. If it was level 10 time, it would have been half a billion. But you're saying it was probably somewhere between level 3 and 4.... not that scary. Definitely can't be "infinite," like so terrifyingly suggested by Yusuf. By your explanation here, it could only be close to infinite if you drug yourself to stay asleep for like an entire week.

Spurple wrote:

bmneu wrote:remember that they got there by choice... going deeper and deeper. Saito and Fischer did not and would have been lost in their subconscious not consiously creating limbo, but from subconscious only.

Again, this takes away the threat of limbo. The only way limbo is dangerous is if you are sent there against your will while under sedatives? Which makes me wonder, why didn't they just have Saito choose to go to limbo? Then he wouldn't have gotten lost.

The limbo we saw was 1) constructed dream space from Mal and Cobb and 20 later on, constructed dream space from Saito. Meaning when Mal and Cobb got to limbo, there was nothing, but their subconscious built around them whatever they wanted. When in the heist, they got to limbo, that was left behind, but Cobb was no longer building or creating anything in limbo because he knew he was there and it was only the left over. Only Saito didn't know and therefore he started creating his own limbo..being shared with Mal and Cobbs limbo.

But when we got there in the heist, there was no Saito creation. If he had been there for the decades, maybe even centuries, shouldn't we have seen Saito much sooner? And wouldn't Mal have gone after him too, or even instead of Fischer, because he was the real important part of freeing Cobb from his crimes in reality? And how did Leo end up in the water again? I assumed it was because he had to go down another level to get to Saito, but you're saying he was already with Saito. If Saito was there for decades because he died a few minutes earlier, shouldn't Fischer also have aged considerably, since he was there a minute or two earlier than Cobb and Adriane?

Jarmel wrote:We honestly don’t know how time is effected in Limbo. Yusuf specifically mentions in the warehouse that they don’t know how time is effected. They would be stuck there until the sedative wears off which could be centuries or infinity. For Cobb and Mal it was dangerous because by the time they got there, they were starting to lose track of reality(it was really Mal as Cobb implies that he knew it was false). There is also the possibility of WANTING to stay down there as you can be pretty much a god.

Then we circle back to the fact that your definition means Limbo is much less dangerous than other levels time wise, because Saito and Cobb should have been under sedatives for hundreds (thousands, millions) of years. But nope, they both come right out of it with their minds intact.

Say I go to level 5, but I only planned it from a memory. I could get lost in that dream world, and be stuck at level 5 for millions of years.

Now on the reverse of that, lets say I go to limbo. It's completely untouched, so I can choose how to create it. And you say I would know I'm in limbo at first, so I'd just have to kill myself and get out of it. Limbo is less threatening than a poorly planned level 3, 4, 5, etc.


You guys keep answering questions that circle back to more questions, and when you answer those they negate your previously answered questions. All you're coming up with is that limbo really isn't that big of a threat. At least not any more than any other deep dream level.

jm9843 wrote:I didn't say that killing yourself in limbo would put you under normal sleep. What I asserted is that dieing in limbo under sedative just leads to....more limbo. Your mind is essentially lost, unable to wakeup, and only capable of perceiving what you or someone else in that shared space had created. It is possible that Saito spent many more decades in limbo than Cobb. If it was Cobb's drowning death on level 1 that "officially" sent him to limbo, then he spent far less dream-time than Saito down there. No matter how long Cobb toiled in limbo before finally locating Saito, his lack of aging was likely due to his never completely accepting it as his reality.

But that would mean limbo time isn't any longer than level 4 time. It might even be less. If limbo time equaled level 5, Dom and Saito would have been there for 3600 years. If it was level 10 time, it would have been half a billion. But you're saying it was probably somewhere between level 3 and 4.... not that scary. Definitely can't be "infinite," like so terrifyingly suggested by Yusuf. By your explanation here, it could only be close to infinite if you drug yourself to stay asleep for like an entire week.

Again Limbo is dangerous because you would be stuck there until the sedatives wore off since your body would be dead. Would you want to be stuck in a fake world for god knows how long with only projections you created yourself to keep you company? It could drive you insane. Hell people can go insane from short periods of isolation. It would in some ways be the best prison and in others the worst prison imaginable(literally). Saito also was somewhat busy as he created that Asian style mansion at the top of the hill and had his own projections(the security guards).

They drove home how honor driven and badass Saito was, on more than one occasion. Even faced with Limbo, Saito specifically mentions that he will remember his promise(in the warehouse when he talks with Cobb) although Cobb doubts this. Saito though seems to make a point of proving people wrong in the movie such as proving Eames wrong about how useful he would be.

It’s quite possibly they WERE down there for millions of years. We don’t know. Cobb looks pretty beaten up and Saito looks old as dirt. They both were stuck down there for quite a while. That is the truly scary part about limbo. I would bet money that every single person in the history of the human race would lost their sense of reality being stuck in a place like that for thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

In regards to Cobb and Mal, they knew they were in Limbo. They just didn’t care. It started to grate on Cobb and he knew they would have to go back but Mal wanted to stay down there and so hid her totem, the only way she could prove Limbo was not reality. She wanted to stay there forever with Cobb. Limbo itself is not particularly threatening, it’s just the sedatives make it a very hellish possibility and if you forget that Limbo isn’t reality then you can very easily lose yourself down there.

Spurple, I think that your misunderstanding at least my view. It's confusing stuff so our own logics can not be fully explained in a forum unless we type a chapter book for each response.

Limbo is threatening if you die because you do not "consciously" go there. Why didn't Saito go there by choice? 1) How would they comprehend that at the time. 2) they would need to send him there with a machine and with that, what next?

The point really is that no mater how you go about any of this, there are things that need explaining in order to look over missing parts or altogether mistakes in the movie. While we are explaining it in one way, you are making explanations in another which like you say, raises more unanswered questions. I'm beginning to understand some minor (but major at the same time) faults of this movies narrative or its own structured logic.