How does Arthur stay asleep in the van?

This 2010 contemporary sci-fi actioner follows a subconscious security team around the globe and into the intimate and infinite world of dreams.
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Dalyinx wrote:
I'm unable to answer this question without watching the movie again. Possible answers are:

1. He did get hooked up to the dream machine and was drugged.
2. They had to rescue him from Mal who was holding him hostage.
3. The syncing up isn't specific to the sedative. Possible evidence for this is that when Cobb is dunked he is also flooded in the dream.
4. Limbo has a different set of rules.

There could be other answers, but those are the best I could come up with. Like I said, I'll have to watch the movie again before I can be sure what's up.

btw, good question.
I can answer some of this stuff. Fischer was not hooked up to dream machine in Level 3 nor was he drugged. They did have to rescue him from Mal because it seems the rules of Limbo are a bit different. It seems you have to kill yourself to get out of Limbo hence the whole Mal having him tied up. Evidence for death being the only way out is the whole Cobb and Mal Limbo stuff from earlier. Now these rules for Limbo though would throw off your whole Adriane needed to sync theory. The syncing up definitely doesn't apply because in the opening dreams, Arthur either woke himself up or had some minor external stimuli to get out of Level 1 but he certainly didn't die in Level 1 yet.

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Jarmel wrote:
Dalyinx wrote:
I'm unable to answer this question without watching the movie again. Possible answers are:

1. He did get hooked up to the dream machine and was drugged.
2. They had to rescue him from Mal who was holding him hostage.
3. The syncing up isn't specific to the sedative. Possible evidence for this is that when Cobb is dunked he is also flooded in the dream.
4. Limbo has a different set of rules.

There could be other answers, but those are the best I could come up with. Like I said, I'll have to watch the movie again before I can be sure what's up.

btw, good question.
I can answer some of this stuff. Fischer was not hooked up to dream machine in Level 3 nor was he drugged. They did have to rescue him from Mal because it seems the rules of Limbo are a bit different. It seems you have to kill yourself to get out of Limbo hence the whole Mal having him tied up. Evidence for death being the only way out is the whole Cobb and Mal Limbo stuff from earlier. Now these rules for Limbo though would throw off your whole Adriane needed to sync theory. The syncing up definitely doesn't apply because in the opening dreams, Arthur either woke himself up or had some minor external stimuli to get out of Level 1 but he certainly didn't die in Level 1 yet.
Yeah, but the issue with the dying in limbo bit is that with the sedative it can be assumed that they'd just end up back in limbo or not die at all. I don't think that's the only way to get out. Also, note that the earlier dreams don't apply to my theory as it's only applicable in the final act. Why? I'm not entirely sure.

Evidence for my theory, though, is that no one wakes up when the van flips, Arthur doesn't wake up when it goes off the edge (although that was meant to be a kick), and that Arthur climbs into the elevator with everyone else although he shouldn't have to if he just needs the kick from level one (the van hitting the water.)

Again, I'm not seeking to explain WHY this is the case. I'm just pointing out that it seems to be, or that there is a plothole.
Last edited by Dalyinx on July 18th, 2010, 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dalyinx wrote: Yeah, but the issue with the dying in limbo bit is that with the sedative it can be assumed that they'd just end up back in limbo or not die at all. I don't think that's the only way to get out. Also, note that the earlier dreams don't apply to my theory as it's only applicable in the final act. Why? I'm not entirely sure.

Evidence for my theory, though, is that no one wakes up when the van flips, Arthur doesn't wake up when it goes off the edge (although that was meant to be a kick), and that Arthur climbs into the elevator with everyone else although he shouldn't have to if he just needs the kick from level one (the van hitting the ground.)

Again, I'm not seeking to explain WHY this is the case. I'm just pointing out that it seems to be, or that there is a plothole.
Here's the real limitation of Limbo. You need to truly believe that it's the fake hence the whole Cobb doing Inception on Mal. Killing yourself isn't enough, you need to want to get out too.

It could be Arthur is making sure that they get the falling sensation otherwise he would have to float up there when time is limited. There definitely is a plothole somewhere though.

I do think your synchronized kick thing is possible just that Limbo has a different set of rules.

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Jarmel wrote:
Dalyinx wrote: Yeah, but the issue with the dying in limbo bit is that with the sedative it can be assumed that they'd just end up back in limbo or not die at all. I don't think that's the only way to get out. Also, note that the earlier dreams don't apply to my theory as it's only applicable in the final act. Why? I'm not entirely sure.

Evidence for my theory, though, is that no one wakes up when the van flips, Arthur doesn't wake up when it goes off the edge (although that was meant to be a kick), and that Arthur climbs into the elevator with everyone else although he shouldn't have to if he just needs the kick from level one (the van hitting the ground.)

Again, I'm not seeking to explain WHY this is the case. I'm just pointing out that it seems to be, or that there is a plothole.
Here's the real limitation of Limbo. You need to truly believe that it's the fake hence the whole Cobb doing Inception on Mal. Killing yourself isn't enough, you need to want to get out too.

It could be Arthur is making sure that they get the falling sensation otherwise he would have to float up there when time is limited. There definitely is a plothole somewhere though.
I'll formulate a better post tomorrow when I'm well rested, but I wanted to note that I believe Cobb planted the idea in Mal's head because he didn't want to kill his own wife when she didn't want to be killed. Also, if he tried to kill her, she might have killed him instead which would have just made a huge mess. I'll mull over this while I sleep and get back to ya later. =]

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Dalyinx wrote:
I'll formulate a better post tomorrow when I'm well rested, but I wanted to note that I believe Cobb planted the idea in Mal's head because he didn't want to kill his own wife when she didn't want to be killed. Also, if he tried to kill her, she might have killed him instead which would have just made a huge mess. I'll mull over this while I sleep and get back to ya later. =]
I think the best answer is a combination of yours and mine. You need the synchronized kicks up to Level 3. For Limbo you need to kill yourself to get out of it so that is why Cobb and Adriane went after Fischer. External kicks won't work otherwise Cobb would have just killed himself and then kicked Mal out of Limbo. The resuscitation brought Fischer back to Level 3 as his body is now functioning and he died in Limbo. Cobb didn't kill himself in Limbo so he actually died in Level 3 from the explosion.

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Is Level 4 really Limbo though? I thought that when Cobb and Ariadne go after Fischer, that was basically the deepest level of Cobb's mind but not necessarily limbo.

They just went one level deeper than there were suppose to. Level 3 (the compound) is where the act of Inception takes place...the actual heist.

But Level 4 (going after Fischer) isn't limbo.

Cobb only goes to limbo after he isn't kicked out of Level 4. He didn't sync up with the kicks, like Ariadne did. The destruction of the compound is the kick for Level 3. The fall of the elevator and it's destruction is the kick for Level 2. The van hitting the water is the kick for Level 1.

Death is the kick for Saito and Cobb in Limbo.

Do I have this right?

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I do agree that the rules of the "kick" do change somewhat depending on the levels.

Also, the sedative isn't really used except for when they first go in. That sedative is there so they can go into multiple levels. Yusif says it's impossible/unstable to do dreams, within dreams...unless using the sedative.

That's why the opening mission got destructive. They went two levels deep but without the sedative.

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toyshy wrote:Saito was shown physically wounded on both level 2 and 3. There are no actual physical anti gravity element in level 2, hence it can't be transferred to level 3?

As for the kick itself, I think it's more of the 'impact' felt upon 'falling over' feeling, as opposed to the 'falling' feeling. The moment the van 'hit' the river, that being the impact.

E.g. if one dream of skydriving, the dive itself won't wake you up, but the 'impact' of 'hitting the ground would =P
The effect of the van falling was interpreted as weightlessness in level 2 (the key word here is interpreted this isn't logical cause and effect but the minds interpretation of sensations from the upper level) as you cannot feel weightlessness so it wasn't interpreted in level 3. Saitos wound can be transferred as he is easily aware of it at each level.

Yes the kick is more the impact than the actual falling - its the shock.
Last edited by arizonabay on July 18th, 2010, 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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arizona,

That's how I looked at it as well...

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Jumpman wrote:Is Level 4 really Limbo though? I thought that when Cobb and Ariadne go after Fischer, that was basically the deepest level of Cobb's mind but not necessarily limbo.

They just went one level deeper than there were suppose to. Level 3 (the compound) is where the act of Inception takes place...the actual heist.

But Level 4 (going after Fischer) isn't limbo.

Cobb only goes to limbo after he isn't kicked out of Level 4. He didn't sync up with the kicks, like Ariadne did. The destruction of the compound is the kick for Level 3. The fall of the elevator and it's destruction is the kick for Level 2. The van hitting the water is the kick for Level 1.

Death is the kick for Saito and Cobb in Limbo.

Do I have this right?
Level four is Limbo because it is clearly stated that that is where you go if you die in the dream under heavy sedation, so Cobb an Ariadne went down there to grab the dead members of the team. Normally people get to Limbo by losing track of reality and going naturally deeper and deeper until they are lost in it, Ariadne and Cobb went down there intentionally with the dream machine so they were fully in control of what was and wasn't real. It could be argued though that when Cobb is left behind he is lost - my theory is then when you die in the dream under heavy sedation, because you expect to wake up and can't your mind shows you what you expect to see on waking and you are instantly lost. This could be what happens to Cobb at the end...or maybe not.

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