Page 11 of 17

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 11:43 am
by Dan_87
Jarmel wrote:
Dan_87 wrote:
Jarmel wrote:
There's also Saito too. Both of them might have been slightly trained to resist mind attacks but they definitely weren't experts. Both Fischer and Saito(I'm somewhat sure about this) for example don't have totems.
i think they do have, just that the movie didn't showed it....the extractor/person who taught them how to resist should also taught them about the way to test whether they are in a dream or in reality

but as the rest of the movie, this part, also can go both ways....man this is starting to look like 2 movies in 1 :wtf:
To be fair though, it was Mal's idea about the totems so it wouldn't be that surprising neither have totems. Fischer though was about to shoot himself without even testing to see if it's a dream.
ahh...must have missed this part, thanks for pointing it out :thumbup:

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 11:59 am
by bearebel7
am still confused
1. so if the father of Fischer was his own mind projection then wat did they gave to Fishers mind, i mean they didnt force anything right, just made him recall his memories,

2.If in the end Cobb is still in dream then wat the plane scenes means

3. if totem falls down in the end,
How Cob came to Satios limbo, thats level 1 from last dream. Satio may have killed them both or sedative ended kicking them both to reality right..

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 12:04 pm
by AaronFaulkner
I wanted to challenge, not dismiss, the notion of Mal being Ariadne and this whole thing is about her trying to save Cobb.

I respectfully disagree with the idea and here's why...

If Mal is Ariadne trying to save Cobb, then we can assume two things: 1) Cobb must still be in limbo (if we are to believe this aspect of the narrative) 2) The entire narrative is a dream, or to be more precise, is limbo (because if Mal is Ariadne trying to bring Cobb back from limbo, he has to actually be in limbo).

Now my counter to these ideas rest in the sole concept of "the kick."

What do we know about "the kick"?

We know that it is supposed to wake you up if you're in the dream state. We also know, according to the discussion within the group after Saito is shot, that if you are too heavily sedated, and killed while in the dream, that you will not wake up but go to limbo.

Ok...now...

If Mal has come back to save Cobb from limbo disguised as Ariadne, then would the "kicks" we've seen to this point simply put him further down into limbo? Even the 'training' session Cobb gives her would put him down further. Then there is the obviousness of actual mission putting him under even further. Furthermore, if the "kicks" during the mission work, would they be enough to bring him back, at the huge depth in limbo, to the so-called real world?

I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 12:58 pm
by JonnyT23
Jarmel wrote:
There's also Saito too. Both of them might have been slightly trained to resist mind attacks but they definitely weren't experts. Both Fischer and Saito(I'm somewhat sure about this) for example don't have totems.[/quote]


Saito's totem was his green shag carpet, remember?

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 2:05 pm
by drbarke
mnc506 wrote:First of all, this is the best thread created so far.

I think a lot of people have really great theories--- and of course there is no way to actually prove what is "right" or "wrong." It's all about the choices we make in understanding it.

I just have a main question... I think for Fang. I think it is pretty hard to deny that the entire movie takes place in Cobb's dream state. Even in the one instance where we see (at least I think we see) the top fall (in the hotel room), it doesn't make sense. How are Cobb's children going to know what random hotel room he is? How are they going to be able to call him directly?

Mal realized what Cobb didn't. Even after killing themselves in limbo, they still weren't in "reality" yet. She's trying to get him to kill himself so they can get back to reality.

Just a quick thought on the end: For some reason people are harping on whether or not the top is going to fall, or slightly moved-- it doesn't matter. Look at both children's outfits and at Michal Caine's outfit -- its the same as they were at earlier/different dream states.

The concept of Ariadne actually being Mal as she attempts to perform inception on Cobb is just fantastic.

I'm sorry if some of this is repetitive, just wanted to hope in the discussion though.
Yeah I think in the end it was all meant not to matter but the mal ari theory would make sense keeping in mind all the factors mentioned earlier.

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 5:16 pm
by MrFang
Jarmel wrote:It seems everybody is misunderstanding the kicks. The kick goes into effect not when you're falling but when you hit the ground. The van kick went into effect when they hit the water and Dom's kick goes into effect when he hit the water in the beginning.
As others have pointed out, a kick is the feeling of falling, not actually hitting the ground. That's why, when the van went off the bridge, everyone noticed it and called it "the first kick." They weren't done with their mission, though, so they ignored/resisted it, and waited for the second kick: the van hitting the water.
mnc506 wrote:First of all, this is the best thread created so far.

I think a lot of people have really great theories--- and of course there is no way to actually prove what is "right" or "wrong." It's all about the choices we make in understanding it.

I just have a main question... I think for Fang. I think it is pretty hard to deny that the entire movie takes place in Cobb's dream state. Even in the one instance where we see (at least I think we see) the top fall (in the hotel room), it doesn't make sense. How are Cobb's children going to know what random hotel room he is? How are they going to be able to call him directly?

Mal realized what Cobb didn't. Even after killing themselves in limbo, they still weren't in "reality" yet. She's trying to get him to kill himself so they can get back to reality.

Just a quick thought on the end: For some reason people are harping on whether or not the top is going to fall, or slightly moved-- it doesn't matter. Look at both children's outfits and at Michal Caine's outfit -- its the same as they were at earlier/different dream states.

The concept of Ariadne actually being Mal as she attempts to perform inception on Cobb is just fantastic.

I'm sorry if some of this is repetitive, just wanted to hope in the discussion though.
Personally, I find the Mal is Ariadne theory compelling, but a bit too convoluted for my tastes. It throws way too much into question to pass my Occam's Razor test.

Like I said earlier, I'm leaning toward the "everything was a dream" theory, but I'll have to wait for my second viewing to decide. There's a lot that points toward this: the children don't seem to age, their clothes don't change, they're playing in the same spot. But the top does fall down in the one scene where he's talking to them, and it does fall down in the prologue comic, which I'm going to assume is canon.

However, I don't find any of this as persuasive as another piece of evidence: Throughout the beginning of the movie, while Cobb is gathering his team, the movie seemed really choppy to me. It was the one flaw in what was otherwise a nearly flawless movie. Why would Nolan do that? Why would he choose to make that section of the movie so choppy when everything else flows so smoothly? One moment they're in Paris, then in Mombasa, then in a dream, then waking up, but there's no transition between them. But that's when I realized that the reason it seems so choppy is that Nolan completely stopped using establishing shots. There's no shot of Cobb landing in Paris or Mombasa, there's no shot of him leaving. There's no shot of the outside of any of the buildings he goes into. What this means is that we, as the viewers, have no idea how he got to these places.

"You never remember the beginning of a dream. How did we get HERE?" Well? How did Cobb get THERE? How did he get to any of these places?

What this means is that the entire first half of the movie is very dream-like, and I think intentionally so. There's plenty of evidence to support both sides of the argument, but I think only one person really knows the answer for sure: Chris Nolan. Therefore, the most persuasive evidence I could possibly find is evidence that comes from him directly, through the cinematography and editing. These things represent the inside of HIS head, and they seem very, very persuasive to me.

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 5:27 pm
by MrFang
bearebel7 wrote:am still confused
1. so if the father of Fischer was his own mind projection then wat did they gave to Fishers mind, i mean they didnt force anything right, just made him recall his memories,

2.If in the end Cobb is still in dream then wat the plane scenes means

3. if totem falls down in the end,
How Cob came to Satios limbo, thats level 1 from last dream. Satio may have killed them both or sedative ended kicking them both to reality right..
1. They made him view his memories in a different light. They couldn't force the idea onto him, they had to suggest that he come up with the idea for himself.

2. It'd just be another dream level.

3. Cobb comes to Saito's limbo because all of the other levels have collapsed. So think of it like this:

Cobb enters level 4 to save Fischer. Ariadne saves Fischer and escapes, but Cobb stays behind with Mal. While he's still stuck in limbo with Mal, levels 2 and 3 collapse as the van hits the water and people wake up. Eventually (after who know's how much time), Cobb escapes his limbo and goes into the next level up. This level WOULD be level 1, since levels 2 and 3 have collapsed, but his body in level 1 is dead, because he drowned. This throws Cobb into limbo once again, but this time it's limbo for level 1, aka Saito's limbo. Saito has been in this limbo for many, many years because he died so much earlier in the story; meanwhile, in the real world, the sedative has worn off, so both Dom and Saito are able to shoot themselves and wake up.

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 5:41 pm
by drbarke
MrFang wrote:
Jarmel wrote:It seems everybody is misunderstanding the kicks. The kick goes into effect not when you're falling but when you hit the ground. The van kick went into effect when they hit the water and Dom's kick goes into effect when he hit the water in the beginning.
As others have pointed out, a kick is the feeling of falling, not actually hitting the ground. That's why, when the van went off the bridge, everyone noticed it and called it "the first kick." They weren't done with their mission, though, so they ignored/resisted it, and waited for the second kick: the van hitting the water.
mnc506 wrote:First of all, this is the best thread created so far.

I think a lot of people have really great theories--- and of course there is no way to actually prove what is "right" or "wrong." It's all about the choices we make in understanding it.

I just have a main question... I think for Fang. I think it is pretty hard to deny that the entire movie takes place in Cobb's dream state. Even in the one instance where we see (at least I think we see) the top fall (in the hotel room), it doesn't make sense. How are Cobb's children going to know what random hotel room he is? How are they going to be able to call him directly?

Mal realized what Cobb didn't. Even after killing themselves in limbo, they still weren't in "reality" yet. She's trying to get him to kill himself so they can get back to reality.

Just a quick thought on the end: For some reason people are harping on whether or not the top is going to fall, or slightly moved-- it doesn't matter. Look at both children's outfits and at Michal Caine's outfit -- its the same as they were at earlier/different dream states.

The concept of Ariadne actually being Mal as she attempts to perform inception on Cobb is just fantastic.

I'm sorry if some of this is repetitive, just wanted to hope in the discussion though.
Personally, I find the Mal is Ariadne theory compelling, but a bit too convoluted for my tastes. It throws way too much into question to pass my Occam's Razor test.

Like I said earlier, I'm leaning toward the "everything was a dream" theory, but I'll have to wait for my second viewing to decide. There's a lot that points toward this: the children don't seem to age, their clothes don't change, they're playing in the same spot. But the top does fall down in the one scene where he's talking to them, and it does fall down in the prologue comic, which I'm going to assume is canon.

However, I don't find any of this as persuasive as another piece of evidence: Throughout the beginning of the movie, while Cobb is gathering his team, the movie seemed really choppy to me. It was the one flaw in what was otherwise a nearly flawless movie. Why would Nolan do that? Why would he choose to make that section of the movie so choppy when everything else flows so smoothly? One moment they're in Paris, then in Mombasa, then in a dream, then waking up, but there's no transition between them. But that's when I realized that the reason it seems so choppy is that Nolan completely stopped using establishing shots. There's no shot of Cobb landing in Paris or Mombasa, there's no shot of him leaving. There's no shot of the outside of any of the buildings he goes into. What this means is that we, as the viewers, have no idea how he got to these places.

"You never remember the beginning of a dream. How did we get HERE?" Well? How did Cobb get THERE? How did he get to any of these places?

What this means is that the entire first half of the movie is very dream-like, and I think intentionally so. There's plenty of evidence to support both sides of the argument, but I think only one person really knows the answer for sure: Chris Nolan. Therefore, the most persuasive evidence I could possibly find is evidence that comes from him directly, through the cinematography and editing. These things represent the inside of HIS head, and they seem very, very persuasive to me.
Mr. Fang, I will be interested to hear what you think following a second veiwing. I agree with everything you have said about some of my replies and as I stated earlier it seems the exact message/rule of the design of the dream (which made perfect sense to me) is it should be a loop or maze that appears to have no defined barriers but does. The movie is in essence a loop or maze for Leo with even the scenes set in reality being very choppy with no transition shots. I don't know how one could argue that he is not permanently stuck in limbo or dream based on this finding and others (ring, totem confusion...it goes on and on), and the question of who intervened (mal is ari, etc) is the real question. I look forward to hearing your opinions after a second viewing.

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 5:54 pm
by arizonabay
I agree, the choppiness was to deliberately disorientate the viewer and make it feel dream like. Cobb even makes an almost fourth wall breaking reference to it with he explains to Ad in her training that she can't remember how she got there because it is a dream (which is also a reference to the artificiality of film anyway - yeah it all gets a bit complicated) . We as viewers are thrown into these situations a lot in this film, where we are suddenly somewhere else and we have to join the dots ourselves.

Edit: Sorry looks like I'm just reiterating others' thoughts - well if we are all thinking the same way we must be onto something. :D

Re: For Those Who Have Questions

Posted: July 17th, 2010, 6:08 pm
by ErickJD08
drbarke wrote:
ErickJD08 wrote:I also have a weird take but I think it works on most levels (no pun intended). I think the movie is about Mal trying to save Cobb out of limbo. She created this whole dream. Here is the kicker. Mal is Ariadne. Cobb and Mal were both in limbo and she was trying to get him out. And she failed. Hence the ending.

How did Mal and Cobb get into Limbo? Easy, that was the train. They were heavily sedated together and they both died putting them into limbo.

How did Mal get out? She committed suicide. She knew it was a dream. That was HER SECRET. Her totem told her that the house and kids was in his dream.

Why is Mal actually Ariadne? Cobb didn't trust Mal anymore. Ariadne was introduced to gain Cobb's trust. They were introduced based on the events in the intro with the proposed deal. He went introduced through his father in law OR Mal's father. Mal's father said she was better than him. Even in their first dream, he was impressed with how well she dealt with the dream. Also, let's not over look Ariadne totem. It was a pawn. Just a piece for Mal's game.

I think to escape limbo, you have to kill yourself. Mal jumped off the ledge thus getting out of limbo. That is why she tried to convince Cobb to jump too. He didn't trust her. Now, draw this similarity with Ariadne. At the end, she ask Cobb to come with her and jump of the building again. He didn't... Mal failed.

And I think the elevator has something to do with the level of dream he is at.
I think you're pretty dead on. So Mal hoped to achieve inception through that initial dream and that is why Siato appeared old for a brief moment in the opening dream and on the helicopter after that quoted cobb word for word when he was lying on the tracks with Mal? Was the ending sort of a secondary option in case he again failed to realize he was in limbo or was he in fact still in limbo and that was the best scenario his mind could create?
Something else that can send you one way our another is the totem. Is its behavior react to the owner or the user? I actually think that it is the owner. From my understanding, its the properties of the totem that cause the object to react to the physics a specific way in your dream that no one else can duplicate. Therefore, I think Cobb had it twisted. When it kept spinning, it was not Mal's dream (so potentially his own). When it falls, its actually Mal's dream. NOW HERE IS THE ICING!!! (WARNING, I ONLY WATCHED IT ONCE AND I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS!!!) I think Ari makes her totem around the same time or same location (???not sure) perhaps indicating that they were in Mal's dream at that time. Now again, I will need to see the film again, but the wedding ring supports my theory as well. But the ring might indicate that Cobb is in Mal's dream. Fun fun...