sevink wrote:It's said in the movie that in dreams we don't remember how they start or how we got there. We are just "there." Its not a stretch to imagine Cobb just dreaming his way to a place where he can meet another projection hes created. But again thats assuming Cobb knows anything about the world hes in.

See that's the problem. If u assume everything was a dream, meaning Cobb was in Limbo. We cant assess to multi layers of dreams because Limbo is simply the terminal, u cant dream further.

The only possibility is that everything occurs on the same Limbo zone. Which is not relevent base on previous debate

Mal definitely died in real life or she would have either been snapped out of the dream and woken up to real life or re-entered limbo. We know she's a figment of his mind though and is a manifestation of his guilt. So in light of her dying in real life, then the whole movie can't be Cobb's own mind game. Also time would be flowing in real life for Cobb and something would have surely woken him either it be the kids, grandparents, food, or any real life issue.

As far as the top spinning at the end. I don't think we are supposed to know or really care whether it stops or continues. Cobbs reaction to his children is so obvious and apparent that it is hard to think that it is anything but real. He spins the top because he questions his reality, but here's his children's voices and looks at there faces (something he refused to do in Limbo). His actions seemed to give the impression that he knew he was in reality.

theweatherman wrote:As far as the top spinning at the end. I don't think we are supposed to know or really care whether it stops or continues. Cobbs reaction to his children is so obvious and apparent that it is hard to think that it is anything but real. He spins the top because he questions his reality, but here's his children's voices and looks at there faces (something he refused to do in Limbo). His actions seemed to give the impression that he knew he was in reality.

I like this point.

After all, I personally define the fact that Nolan was trying to tell us (Especially the shifting from children back to wobble spinning and end). Reality or not, it doesn't matter anymore. So appealing to our life....

Movie is interesting because sometimes we define what we want to believe in. Dictating what others are thinking is not the way movies are made in purpose for the audiences

your mind is the scene of the crime

the tag line said it all

theweatherman wrote:As far as the top spinning at the end. I don't think we are supposed to know or really care whether it stops or continues. Cobbs reaction to his children is so obvious and apparent that it is hard to think that it is anything but real. He spins the top because he questions his reality, but here's his children's voices and looks at there faces (something he refused to do in Limbo). His actions seemed to give the impression that he knew he was in reality.

Of course we should care whether the top stops or not. If it doesn't, it's a dream.

And do remember that Cobb locked his wife's memories to keep her alive. I don't he's the best person to trust in judging what's real and what's not. He's created world from his memories. i wouldn't be surprised if he how he spent his limbo.

There is one thing that PROVES that the last scene he was still in a dream and he was in limbo - the kids. They are in the same position, same clothing, and same age as the last time he saw them and had been dreaming of ever since (explained previously on the forum).

He saw their faces and thus accepted, in his subconscious or consciously that this limbo world was the one he knew he'd be the happiest in without the guilt of his wife's death (just previously resolved).

What I don't understand though is that Mal was beginning to believe that their world was a reality when they were in limbo together for all those years. And used her totem that she locked away to show that it does fall and she believes that she's in reality. But Leo knows it isn't and spins it and manipulates it to spin indefinitely, showing her that it is indeed a dream - i.e. his first inception. This in turn broke her into thinking the reality was also a dream, regardless of whether or not the totem (her totem, and then later his) stopped spinning.

So they killed themselves to get out of limbo right? So killing yourself does get you out of limbo while you're in it, but killing yourself in a deep layer of subconsciousness (achieved by being sedated) puts you into it. We know what they were experiencing together wasn't a layer of subconsciousness but limbo because Cobb actually said it was. So I know that shouldn't be questioned. However, were their limbo's different? That is, did Cobb and Mal drug themselves before going to sleep and eventually into limbo together (which is what Cobb did call it, it wasn't a layer of subconsciousness)? Or were they only drugged during the heist, thus making going out of limbo impossible until the drug worked off? (unlike Cobb's and Mal's limbo)

Therefore, if Saito killed them both after Leo convinced him in their conjoined state of limbo that it isn't real, wouldn't that have woken them up and not sent them into an even deeper limbo? (based off of how Leo and Mal woke up the last time from limbo by killing themselves)

So if the whole "kids are the same" conundrum almost proving the last scene was a dream, how did he get there? I understand he got into a limbo with the older Saito by dying in the collapsing fourth layer (Saito died in the third, but they still met in limbo as they were still connected, sharing Fischer's dream, just Saito was much older because he had been there much longer). But how did he get from limbo with Saito to where he was in the final scene, again going with the theory that the final scene was a dream?

However, if Cobb and Mal didn't drug themselves, then the rules are changed and that while Cobb and Mal got out of limbo by killing themselves, Saito and Cobb killing themselves wouldn't wake them up, but only send them deeper into limbo because they were indeed sedated. Therefore, the last scene was Cobb in deeper state of limbo as a result of Saito killing him when they were already both in limbo, which would answer my question and prove my theory completely. But I can't figure out what the true rules of limbo are. What do you guys think?

I think everyone's making it too complicated. Of all the different interpretational "keys", one seems to rise above all the others.

It's stated in the movie (as others have said) that when in a dream, one cannot remember how one got there. There's a blurring. However, when Cobb wakes up at the end, there is a very clear path in both the viewers mind and his mind to where the dream began, where he was, etc. We have a timeline stretching back into his earlier years, as opposed to just in media res dream, where absolutely nothing is remembered about the dream.

Fischer and Ariadne were both asked "how did you get here", and neither were able to provide an answer. Cobb, on the other hand, knew where he was and where he came from. So, unless he *intentionally* put himself in a dream, I don't see how the final scenes could be part of a dream world.

Either way, great movie. Loved the ambiguous ending that fuels these internet discussion boards.

SeraphX17 wrote:There is one thing that PROVES that the last scene he was still in a dream and he was in limbo - the kids. They are in the same position, same clothing, and same age as the last time he saw them and had been dreaming of ever since (explained previously on the forum).

He saw their faces and thus accepted, in his subconscious or consciously that this limbo world was the one he knew he'd be the happiest in without the guilt of his wife's death (just previously resolved).

What I don't understand though is that Mal was beginning to believe that their world was a reality when they were in limbo together for all those years. And used her totem that she locked away to show that it does fall and she believes that she's in reality. But Leo knows it isn't and spins it and manipulates it to spin indefinitely, showing her that it is indeed a dream - i.e. his first inception. This in turn broke her into thinking the reality was also a dream, regardless of whether or not the totem (her totem, and then later his) stopped spinning.

So they killed themselves to get out of limbo right? So killing yourself does get you out of limbo while you're in it, but killing yourself in a deep layer of subconsciousness (achieved by being sedated) puts you into it. We know what they were experiencing together wasn't a layer of subconsciousness but limbo because Cobb actually said it was. So I know that shouldn't be questioned. However, were their limbo's different? That is, did Cobb and Mal drug themselves before going to sleep and eventually into limbo together (which is what Cobb did call it, it wasn't a layer of subconsciousness)? Or were they only drugged during the heist, thus making going out of limbo impossible until the drug worked off? (unlike Cobb's and Mal's limbo)

Therefore, if Saito killed them both after Leo convinced him in their conjoined state of limbo that it isn't real, wouldn't that have woken them up and not sent them into an even deeper limbo? (based off of how Leo and Mal woke up the last time from limbo by killing themselves)

So if the whole "kids are the same" conundrum almost proving the last scene was a dream, how did he get there? I understand he got into a limbo with the older Saito by dying in the collapsing fourth layer (Saito died in the third, but they still met in limbo as they were still connected, sharing Fischer's dream, just Saito was much older because he had been there much longer). But how did he get from limbo with Saito to where he was in the final scene, again going with the theory that the final scene was a dream?

However, if Cobb and Mal didn't drug themselves, then the rules are changed and that while Cobb and Mal got out of limbo by killing themselves, Saito and Cobb killing themselves wouldn't wake them up, but only send them deeper into limbo because they were indeed sedated. Therefore, the last scene was Cobb in deeper state of limbo as a result of Saito killing him when they were already both in limbo, which would answer my question and prove my theory completely. But I can't figure out what the true rules of limbo are. What do you guys think?

We're not given a timeframe when his wife died. His wife could have died half a year to a year ago so the kids could possibly have not changed that much.

In order to get to Limbo, you HAVE to be heavily drugged and either die in one of the Levels or specifically go to Limbo. The rules of sedation seems to mean if you aren't already dead then you can use a kicker to get out of Limbo however once your dead then the rules somewhat change in regards to kickers and their necessity. Instead death and the genuine belief that you are indeed in a fake world is necessary to get out. You can't uses kickers because there is no body to kick in any of the Levels so death is indeed your only way out, hence the train suicide(which I might add is one of the worst and just a plain stupid way to go) with Cobb and Mal. When you use suicide it seems in Limbo, it automatically throws you all the way back to reality, skipping the Levels as seen initially by Cobb and Mal.

Also it is somewhat important to establish where Cobb at the end is because of that whole speech he gave Mal at the end. He flat out rejected being in a dream and wanted to go back to reality. So if he is indeed tricked by his own mind into thinking he's been reunited with his kids then this is a very tragic ending.

Great post Jarmel. I personally just don't see how Cobb and Saito possibly manage to create another dream world within Limbo, especially after Old Saito clearly grabs the gun. There could be two possibilities: either they both ended their lives sending them back to the airplane or the sedative wore off as Old Saito reached for the gun. If this is the case we have to assume Mal's death wasn't long after this. The children don't seem to age and coincidentally they're wearing the same clothes.

And btw, doesn't Arthur mention (after they realized the consequences of dying under heavy sedation within a dream) that what's down there in Limbo is essentially nothing, just infinite subconscious. And then he proceeds to say something like or the creation of someone that's sharing the dream with them (which is Cobb; the world he created with Mal). So there was an edge of the subconscious type Limbo (Cobb and Mals creation; The one Cobb and Ariadne entered purposely by going a further level down than level three) and a true Limbo (the one Saito went to when he died in level three/and drowned in level 1 and also the one Cobb ended up as a result of drowning underwater in the van).