I am not addressing atheists here (per say).. i am addressing people who REQUIRE proof to believe in things. (yes.. this includes people who stringently believe only in stuff that is within the reach of science.. and hence sensation)

now i am sure many of you are veterans to the existential nihilist argument..
So here is how it goes:

existential nihilism (EN) is the belief that there is no OBJECTIVE purpose to life.. that there is only subjectivity and no general,common or universal rule applies to anyone.. EN tells us that we are insignificant, trivial, and selfish organisms.. all we can do is create our own delusional purpose to survive and not kill ourselves (basically a life dedicated to self preservation).

astrophysics, astronomy, and biology are general fields that would agree with the part that says that we are insignificant..
SURE we are organized matter.. able to sense matter around us.. experience... live...

but what the F#$% is all that worth anyway? the universe is ultimately moving towards increasing entropy and chaos
and if anyone were to take a wild guess they would understand that life and organization are BOTH transient..

so here comes the challenging part for people who don't have faith:

why do you believe in morals?
if you fancy yourself an EN then you'd probably say that morals are subjective and delusional self defense constructs meant to give a personal purpose..
OR
you might be defiant and point to survival.. you might say: "the evolutionary significance of objective morals is what has led to survival...and these morals in turn are rooted in our design.. for example guilt.. shame... fear... hence i am compelled to have morals.."

of course i would agree with the latter part of the statement.. but i wouldn't agree that morals are rooted in our design.. morals
DO change with time and circumstance.. and yes.. emotions such as fear that have ultimately led to survival don't change.

Next question is harder...
WHY has fear led to survival? and what is fear?
you can't point to transcription of certain genes or.. specific neuronal circuitry in your brain.. that is not how you define fear.. fear is there because of CONSEQUENCE.. when a zebra detects movement of a foraging lion it reflexively associates an aversive consequence with inaction.. WHY is that?
because without fear you don't survive..

now think about your daily life.. why do you take showers, brush your teeth, wash your clothes..
why do you do your job? why do you study? why do you get married? why do you reproduce? and why do you DO anything?

see it is unhealthy (bad for survival) to:
have bad hygiene..to be a slob.. to be forever single.. to have no offspring..
appropriately there are social stigmas in place JUST so you may be reminded that there is a consequence..

so do you see how life presupposes consequence??
i am sure you can give me numerous examples where fear does not prevail.. and courage has led to survival.. but then
i would argue that even courage requires consequence.. both fight AND flight are there to preserve the self and avoid death..

see people who don't have faith blindly assert that the universe will end in nothingness.. or that the universe ends as soon as they loose consciousness..

OR that they await some sort of evidence that might make them believe in a universal purpose..

but i am just going to tell them this:
your body functions to survive.. all the machinery within your cells is designed around consequence.. a simple upset in the balance of one hormone can cause a chain reaction leading further homeostatic disruption..
simple inaction can cause you to compromise your health.. become diabetic.. develop cancer (cessation requires an active effort).. persistent absence from your job.. or important family gatherings can cause an irreversible consequence.. in which you become a liability..

so DON'T await proof.. there is none..
by believing that the universe and existence is without consequence we contradict life within ourselves..
Life REQUIRES faith in a consequence.. and faith in a purpose..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... 4GAQtGtd_0

I'm fine with living in nihil.

I believe in my own goals and expectations. That's it. I don't feel "EN" because it gives me a purpose to life and drives me.

You don't need to have faith in anything to not live in EN.. rather, you just need to have a dream, a goal, a fantasy..

lalyil wrote:I believe in my own goals and expectations. That's it. I don't feel "EN" because it gives me a purpose to life and drives me.

You don't need to have faith in anything to not live in EN.. rather, you just need to have a dream, a goal, a fantasy..

hope is a prerequisite for dreams, goals and fantasies..
and hope is a byproduct of faith in one's own ability.

Viral114 wrote:hope is a prerequisite for dreams, goals and fantasies..
and hope is a byproduct of faith in one's own ability.

I actually lack faith in my own abilities.. almost entirely. But that's a discussion to have with my therapist

It depends on the type of faith you're referring to. One can have faith in their abilities, and not faith in a higher being. In my opinion, one can have faith and morals without a belief that it came from a higher power. People do things that make them feel good and avoid things that make them feel bad (can't remember the technical term for this but it's from an earlier political scientist).

You stated that those who do not have faith, do not have it because they need proof of some sort, and this is true to a large extent. They are natural skeptics, as am I. But I disagree when you state that, you must have faith because many things will not show itself, and you provided examples. However, if I do not go to work, then the proof will be that I'm fired and unable to pay my bills. This is a negative consequence and thus, I am more likely to not do it. Referencing back to my statement about people avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure...that is what it's all about. If I am nice to people, most people will be nice back, thus this is a pleasure and not a pain. People gain their morals and values through these types of real world interactions, and they do not necessarily need a faith or a religion to do so. Tangible evidence is important, especially in today's society where we can now prove or disprove many things through science. Now, hope is a different thing altogether, because having faith that I will make it to tomorrow is a realistic expectation, however having faith that I'm going to go to a never never land after I die here on Earth and live among every one through their spirits is purely speculation with no tangible evidence whatsoever.

I have faith in a "purpose" which doesn't lean to nihilism. However, I'm not so sure about my faith in a higher being like Jesus.

It also leads to "vanity and corruption"

I'm a nihilist who believes in Harvey Dent. Problem?

Viral114 wrote:existential nihilism (EN) is the belief that there is no OBJECTIVE purpose to life.. that there is only subjectivity and no general,common or universal rule applies to anyone.. EN tells us that we are insignificant, trivial, and selfish organisms.. all we can do is create our own delusional purpose to survive and not kill ourselves (basically a life dedicated to self preservation).

You could be referring to certain members of NolanFans here, definitely.

I would argue that purpose is a man-made thing. It's a subjective idea that we somehow matter in the universe, because that assumes that universe somehow reasons between what is good and bad. To me, the universe is just there, it's chaos and there's no way to truly define chaos.

I do have faith in things, just not what maybe theistic people have faith in. I think what you're talking about only concerns one specific definition of faith. I don't think anyone is truly 100% objective and awaits proof all the time. Even the most cynical people have faith in something.