2012 Presidential Election

A place for more serious off-topic discussion and debates.
Posts: 2038
Joined: November 2009
Location: Wisconsin, USA
^ Where to even begin :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

User avatar
Posts: 20188
Joined: June 2010
Location: The White City
Beetles wrote:Why anyone with sense would vote for Ron Paul is beyond me

This, among other things from http://ron-paul.tumblr.com/:
Just a reminder..

*Ron Paul wants to stop American kids from getting a good education.
*Ron Paul wants to stop all social safety net programs.
*Ron Paul wants to end disaster relief programs.
*Ron Paul wants to change the 14th and 16th Amendments of the Constitution but he calls himself a “constitutionalist.”
*Ron Paul opposes all free trade agreements, while touting the free market.
*Ron Paul wants to stop co-operating with other countries in dialog and treaties that promote peace and mutual understanding.
*Ron Paul supported Reagan’s derided “Star Wars” program.
*Ron Paul supported the invasion of Afghanistan as much as he opposes it now.
*Ron Paul wants to change the 14th amendment thereby ending birthright citizenship for children born to aliens residing in the U.S., and would not give medical attention to any children of undocumented immigrants
*Ron Paul requested nearly $400 million dollars in earmarks in bills he voted against.
*Ron Paul champions the encroachment and inclusion of religion and prayers in public schools, saying “The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers.”
*Ron Paul’s “We The People” act would allow state, county, and local governments to ban atheists and people who are pro-choice from government.
*Ron Paul voted AGAINST net neutrality, which would prevent big companies like AT&T and Verizon from stopping internet users from having free & equal access to all online media.
*Ron Paul has opposed legislation fighting online child predators and online child pornography.
*Ron Paul voted against a nationwide amber alert.
*Ron Paul thinks guns should be allowed on airplanes and in schools.
*Ron Paul opposes affirmative action.
*Ron Paul Opposed renewal of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, originally passed to remove barriers to voting participation for women & minorities.
*Ron Paul opposes same sex marriage, and all adoptions that aren’t being made by couples who aren’t related or married.
*Ron Paul opposes civil rights and discrimination laws: “We see people as groups, as they belong to certain groups and that they derive their rights as belonging to groups. We don’t get our rights because we’re gays or women or minorities. We get our rights from our Creator as individuals.” -Ron Paul
*Ron Paul defends what he describes as the states right to pass and enforce laws that regulate social issues including sex practices.
*Ron Paul is anti-choice, and states that a person is formed when the sperm meets the egg. He also sponsored the “Sanctity of Life” bill.
*“Capital punishment is a deserving penalty for those who commit crime” - Ron Paul, August 2007
*“Climate change is no big deal.” “Global Warming is a hoax.” -Ron Paul
*Ron Paul wants to tear down and eliminate all VA hospitals.
*Ron Paul has said he wants to remove the regulations that insure my water is safe to drink and my food is safe to eat.
*Ron Paul wants to build more nuclear power plants.
*Ron Paul was too busy campaigning to vote against NDAA.
*Ron Paul is endorsed by Kelly Clarkson..and the Knights of the Klu Klux Klan.
*Ron Paul thinks the disaster in Chernobyl was no big deal.
*Ron Paul voted against investigating BP oil after the disaster oil spill.
*Ron Paul is a lying sack of shit who needs to be reminded how bad his shit stinks.
*Ron Paul is nothing revolutionary.

-----------------------
Remembering the abortion thread, I'm surprised at how many of you who are pro-choice are also for Ron Paul. SMH
I'm struggling to not be rude, this is the most biased, blatantly misinformed, purely ignorant post on here I've seen in a long time.

I don't give enough of a damn to post much, but almost all those points are either wholly irrelevant to his integrity as a politician (he's endorsed by Kelly Clarkson and the KKK? Most politicians are supported by random celebrities and extremist groups- neither being indicative of anything, obviously).

Few things-

1.) He endorses gay marriage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJz81lAwY0M Go around to the 2 minute mark.

2.) "Anti-Choice" His argument is a popular one found in every bio-ethics discussion since we had the technology to realize certain things, such as how the DNA strand present at conception remains unchanged to birth, and the reality millions would be alive if abortion didn't exist. I know this is a hot-issue topic on this site, but all the same, it's not an extremist view, merely one shared with many fellow doctors.

3.) About guns- "Q: You have said that the 9/11 attackers might have had second thoughts if they’d felt that some of the passengers aboard the airplanes might have been armed.
A: You’re quoting me incorrectly. I said the responsibility for protecting passengers falls with the airline, not the government--and not the passengers. The airline’s responsible for the aircraft and the passengers. If we wouldn’t have been dependent on the federal government to set all the rules, which meant no guns & no resistance, then the terrorists may well have had second thoughts, because the airlines would have had the responsibility. But we assumed the government was going to take care of us. After 9/11, instead of moving toward the direction of personal responsibility & private property & 2nd amendment, we moved in the opposite direction. We turned it over to the federal government. Private industry protects their property all the time. But here is one example when the federal government was involved and they messed it up."

http://www.issues2000.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Gun_Control.htm

4.) About education- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD8rJCbEVMg He believes people feeling entitlement to wealth other than their own is preposterous and the Government giving handouts to loads of people who can't pay it back only creates problems, which it has, the college loan system is one of the primary factors that have crippled this nation's economy, along with doing the same with the housing market. There's many factors, that goes without saying, but those are two big ones. This goes to lengths to identify his view on economics too, and had his economic plans been in place in the last ten years, a large portion of the debt crisis we're in right now wouldn't be happening.

5.) "Ron Paul wants to end disaster relief programs." Yeah- okay, like most other things, he feels this should be a state issue, not a federal one, as it'd only push up spending considerably along with heaps of other programs. If it's controlled by the states themselves, they can regulate it, have greater control, and so on, it all makes perfect sense.

Look at that, I discredited you without even criticizing ridiculous statements like "he's nothing revolutionary."

That's all I care to do for now.

-Vader

Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway
Vader182 wrote: I'm struggling to not be rude, this is the most biased, blatantly misinformed, purely ignorant post on here I've seen in a long time.

I don't give enough of a damn to post much, but almost all those points are either wholly irrelevant to his integrity as a politician (he's endorsed by Kelly Clarkson and the KKK? Most politicians are supported by random celebrities and extremist groups- neither being indicative of anything, obviously).

Few things-

1.) He endorses gay marriage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJz81lAwY0M Go around to the 2 minute mark.

2.) "Anti-Choice" His argument is a popular one found in every bio-ethics discussion since we had the technology to realize certain things, such as how the DNA strand present at conception remains unchanged to birth, and the reality millions would be alive if abortion didn't exist. I know this is a hot-issue topic on this site, but all the same, it's not an extremist view, merely one shared with many fellow doctors.

3.) About guns- "Q: You have said that the 9/11 attackers might have had second thoughts if they’d felt that some of the passengers aboard the airplanes might have been armed.
A: You’re quoting me incorrectly. I said the responsibility for protecting passengers falls with the airline, not the government--and not the passengers. The airline’s responsible for the aircraft and the passengers. If we wouldn’t have been dependent on the federal government to set all the rules, which meant no guns & no resistance, then the terrorists may well have had second thoughts, because the airlines would have had the responsibility. But we assumed the government was going to take care of us. After 9/11, instead of moving toward the direction of personal responsibility & private property & 2nd amendment, we moved in the opposite direction. We turned it over to the federal government. Private industry protects their property all the time. But here is one example when the federal government was involved and they messed it up."

http://www.issues2000.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Gun_Control.htm

4.) About education- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD8rJCbEVMg He believes people feeling entitlement to wealth other than their own is preposterous and the Government giving handouts to loads of people who can't pay it back only creates problems, which it has, the college loan system is one of the primary factors that have crippled this nation's economy, along with doing the same with the housing market. There's many factors, that goes without saying, but those are two big ones. This goes to lengths to identify his view on economics too, and had his economic plans been in place in the last ten years, a large portion of the debt crisis we're in right now wouldn't be happening.

5.) "Ron Paul wants to end disaster relief programs." Yeah- okay, like most other things, he feels this should be a state issue, not a federal one, as it'd only push up spending considerably along with heaps of other programs. If it's controlled by the states themselves, they can regulate it, have greater control, and so on, it all makes perfect sense.

Look at that, I discredited you without even criticizing ridiculous statements like "he's nothing revolutionary."

That's all I care to do for now.

-Vader
Thank you very much for that post Vader :clap: . You stopped me from putting Beetles post in the "dumb world" thread. Ill just put your post in the "what made me smile today" thread instead.

Posts: 555
Joined: June 2011
Yeah I supported Ron Paul too, did my research about him back when GW Bush was president. But then I came to my senses. I noticed that a lot of his supporters say the same things you brought up Vader, but there are a lot of things about him that are the same as any other run of the mill politician. He says some good things, but tons of things I don't agree with. His supporters like to say, "he'll turn the power over to the states..." every time something like gay marriage or abortion is mentioned, but that's just allowing them to possibly fuck it up big time. Except this time it's not the feds doing it, it's the states. I like how "but with Paul the states will be given the power to do so" is a common reasoning :roll: You could still kiss your individual liberties goodbye, because what Paul really wants to say is that states will be in control of it instead of the federal government.
If you disliked the "humor" in the previous post, here's this bit (with evidence backing up these ignorant claims! *in the form of legislation-that will have to be googled):
from http://saucylark.tumblr.com/post/139503 ... r-ron-paul
1. Ron Paul does not value equal rights for minorities. Ron Paul has sponsored legislation that would repeal affirmative action, keep the IRS from investigating private schools who may have used race as a factor in denying entrance, thus losing their tax exempt status, would limit the scope of Brown versus Board of Education, and would deny citizenship for those born in the US if their parents are not citizens. Here are links to these bills: H.R.3863, H.R.5909, H.J.RES.46, and H.J.RES.42.

2. Ron Paul would deny women control of their bodies and reproductive rights.Ron Paul makes it very clear that one of his aims is to repeal Roe v. Wade. He has also co sponsored 4 separate bills to “To provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception.” This, of course, goes against current medical and scientific information as well as our existing laws and precedents. Please see these links: H.R.2597 and H.R.392

3. Ron Paul would be disastrous for the working class. He supports abolishing the Federal minimum wage, has twice introduced legislation to repeal OSHA, or the Occupational Safety and Health Act and would deal devastating blows to Social Security including repealing the act that makes it mandatory for employees of nonprofits, to make “coverage completely optional for both present and future workers”, and would “freeze benefit levels”. He has also twice sponsored legislation seeking to repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and the Copeland Act which among other things provide that contractors for the federal government must provide the prevailing wage and prohibits corporate “kick backs.” Here are the related legislative links: H.R.2030, H.R.4604, H.R.736, and H.R.2720

4. Ron Paul’s tax plan is unfair to lower earners and would greatly benefit those with the highest incomes.He has repeatedly submitted amendments to the tax code that would get rid of the estate and gift taxes, tax all earners at 10%, disallow income tax credits to individuals who are not corporations, repeal the elderly tax credit, child care credit, earned income credit, and other common credits for working class citizens. Please see this link for more information: H.R.05484 Summary

5. Ron Paul’s policies would cause irreparable damage to our already strained environment. Among other travesties he supports off shore drilling, building more oil refineries, mining on federal lands, no taxes on the production of fuel, and would stop conservation efforts that could be a “Federal obstacle” to building and maintaining refineries. He has also sought to amend the Clean Air Act, repeal the Soil and Water Conservation Act of 1977, and to amend the Federal Water Pollution Control Act to “restrict the jurisdiction of the United States over the discharge of dredged or fill material to discharges into waters”. To see for yourself the possible extent of the damage to the environment that would happen under a Paul administration please follow these links: H.R.2504, H.R.7079, H.R.7245, H.R.2415, H.R.393, H.R.4639, H.R.5293, and H.R.6936

6. A Ron Paul administration would continue to proliferate the negative image of the US among other nations. Ron Paul supports withdrawing the US from the UN, when that has not happened he has fought to at least have the US withdrawn from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He has introduced legislation to keep the US from giving any funds to the UN. He also submitted that the US funds should not be used in any UN peacekeeping mission or any UN program at all. He has sponsored a bill calling for us to “terminate all participation by the United States in the United Nations, and to remove all privileges, exemptions, and immunities of the United Nations.”Ron Paul twice supported stopping the destruction of intercontinental ballistic missile silos in the United States. He also would continue with Bush’s plan of ignoring international laws by maintaining an insistence that the International Criminal Court does not apply to the US, despite President Clinton’s signature on the original treaty. The International Criminal Court is used for, among other things, prosecution of war crimes. Please see the following links: H.R.3891, H.AMDT.191, H.AMDT.190, H.R.3769, H.R.1665, H.CON.RES.23, and H.R.1154

7. Ron Paul discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation and would not provide equal rights and protections to glbt citizens. This is an issue that Paul sort of dances around. He has been praised for stating that the federal government should not regulate who a person marries. This has been construed by some to mean that he is somewhat open to the idea of same sex marriage, he is not. Paul was an original co sponsor of the Marriage Protection Act in the House in 2004. Among other things this discriminatory piece of legislation placed a prohibition on the recognition of a same sex marriage across state borders. He said in 2004 that if he was in the Texas legislature he would not allow judges to come up with “new definitions” of marriage. Paul is a very religious conservative and though he is careful with his words his record shows that he is not a supporter of same sex marriage. In 1980 he introduced a particularly bigoted bill entitled “A bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955 A direct quote from the legislation “Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style.” shows that he is unequivocally opposed to lifestyles other than heterosexual.

8. Ron Paul has an unnatural obsession with guns. One of Paul’s loudest gripes is that the second amendment of the constitution is being eroded. In fact, he believes that September 11 would not have happened if that wasn’t true. He advocates for there to be no restrictions on personal ownership of semi-automatic weaponry or large capacity ammunition feeding devices, would repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act (because we all know our schools are just missing more guns), wants guns to be allowed in our National Parks, and repeal the Gun Control Act of 1968. Now, I’m pretty damn certain that when the Constitution was written our founding fathers never intended for people to be walking around the streets with AK47′s and “large capacity ammunition feeding devices.” (That just sounds scary.) Throughout the years our Constitution has been amended and is indeed a living document needing changes to stay relevant in our society. Paul has no problem changing the Constitution when it fits his needs, such as no longer allowing those born in the US to be citizens if their parents are not. On the gun issue though he is no holds barred. I know he’s from Texas but really, common sense tells us that the amendments he is seeking to repeal have their place. In fact, the gun control act was put into place after the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., and Robert Kennedy. Please view the following links: H.R.2424, H.R.1897, H.R.1096, H.R.407, H.R.1147, and H.R.3892.

9. Ron Paul would butcher our already sad educational system. The fact is that Ron Paul wants to privatize everything and that includes education. Where we run into problems is that it has been shown (think our current health care system) that this doesn’t work so well in practice. Ron Paul has introduced legislation that would keep the Federal Government “from planning, developing, implementing, or administering any national teacher test or method of certification and from withholding funds from States or local educational agencies that fail to adopt a specific method of teacher certification.” In a separate piece of legislation he seeks to “prohibit the payment of Federal Education assistance in States which require the licensing or certification of private schools or private school teachers.” So basically the federal government can’t regulate teaching credentials and if states opt to require them for private schools they get no aid. That sounds like a marvelous idea teachers with no certification teaching in private schools that are allowed to discriminate on the basis of race. He is certainly moving forward with these proposals!Remember his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955? Guess what? He basically advocates for segregation in schools once again. It “Forbids any court of the United States from requiring the attendance at a particular school of any student because of race, color, creed, or sex.” Without thinking about this statement it doesn’t sound bad at all. But remember, when desegregating schools that this is done by having children go to different schools, often after a court decision as in Brown Vs. Board of Education. If this were a bill that passed, schools would no longer be compelled to comply and the schools would go back to segregation based on their locations. Ron Paul is really starting to look like a pretty bigoted guy don’t you think?

10. Ron Paul is opposed to the separation of church and state. This reason is probably behind every other thing that I disagree with in regards to Paul’s positions. Ron Paul is among those who believes that there is a war on religion, he stated “Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view.” (( Koyaanisqatsi Blog: Wrong Paul Why I Do Not Want Ron Paul to be My President )) Though he talks a good talk, at times, Ron Paul can’t get away from his far right, conservative views. He would support “alternative views” to evolution taught in public schools (i.e. Intelligent Design.) We’ve already taken a look at his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955Besides hating the gays he takes a very religious stance on many other things. He is attempting to force his beliefs on the rest of America, exactly what he would do as president.

Do yourself a favor and read what these bills contain.
And your argument on abortion is biased anyways since you're anti-abortion... of course Ron Paul is up your alley.

Nothing will make me "see the light" on someone who put his name on a newsletter promoting racism and homophobia. Plus having supporters like this says a lot:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ron-pa ... ay-people/

and Stormfront. And the Tea Party. Nuff said.
Last edited by Beetles on January 21st, 2012, 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 555
Joined: June 2011
movieman1005 wrote:^ Where to even begin :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
I welcome you to please go through ALL of the points and find evidence to the contrary. Of course I have links to other Paul statements (verbal and written) and legislation he's supported/opposed, but if you'd like to "begin," be my guest. :thumbup:

Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway
Beetles wrote: *Ron Paul is a lying sack of shit who needs to be reminded how bad his shit stinks.
*Ron Paul is nothing revolutionary.
Those 2 very well articulated points made me simply let it go.

Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway
And with this, I will say enough for me in this thread. Times does not change, its always been the same. Just more modernized and connected is the only difference.
Image

Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway

Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway



User avatar
Posts: 26396
Joined: February 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
This is just pure gold:

Rick Santorum launches CUM: Conservatives Unite Moneybomb

Image

Offical site: https://www.ricksantorum.com/unite/
If she plays cranium she gives good brainium.

Post Reply