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al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 5:28 pm
by chom
I'm generally against these drone strikes, and I think the Iraq war has been, mostly, a waste of time and lives.

On the other hand, let's not fall into the pit of blaming the US, and making it appear as if these terrorists are simply reactionaries. Al Qaeda explicitly wants the destruction of the Western way of life because they hold it in contempt. These are totalitarian sadists at the end of the day.

http://youtu.be/IAAi9CG7WW0

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 5:43 pm
by Skyab23
chom wrote:I'm generally against these drone strikes, and I think the Iraq war has been, mostly, a waste of time and lives.

On the other hand, let's not fall into the pit of blaming the US, and making it appear as if these terrorists are simply reactionaries. Al Qaeda explicitly wants the destruction of the Western way of life because they hold it in contempt. These are totalitarian sadists at the end of the day.

http://youtu.be/IAAi9CG7WW0
How many suicide terrorist attacks had Afghanistan experienced in that nation's history before the U.S. arrived? Tens of thousands, hundreds? No, ZERO. What about Iraq? The same answer, none. There is a definable correlation between suicide terrorism, particularly that of Islam, and foreign intervention. Bin Laden and top affiliates of al-Qaeda, have stated, not that they are doing this because of what you claim is their hatred for "the Western way of life," but instead because of U.S. foreign policy.

If you have more evidence to back up your theory that they are doing this because of our way of life, please provide us with it. I will be more than happy to back my theory with words from the martyrs of 9/11, bin Laden, etc, as well as providing demographic statistics.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 5:55 pm
by chom
http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32759.pdf
http://observer.com/2007/08/in-their-ow ... -al-qaeda/

Western secularism and pluralism is pretty offensive to types who want to ban music. Not songs, by the way, music in general.

I'm not naive about the role of the US in foreign affairs, but blaming ourselves for everything that happens to us is masochistic bullshit.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 6:32 pm
by Skyab23
chom wrote:http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32759.pdf
http://observer.com/2007/08/in-their-ow ... -al-qaeda/

Western secularism and pluralism is pretty offensive to types who want to ban music. Not songs, by the way, music in general.

I'm not naive about the role of the US in foreign affairs, but blaming ourselves for everything that happens to us is masochistic bullshit.
The links you just sent me, actually support my argument, and I'll provide specific excerpts from those links in just a moment. But I want to acknowledge that yes, western culture is different than the culture of the Middle East. Of course it is, just as we would be uncomfortable with Islamic traditions becoming the norm in our country, they are against many western traditions taking over in their part of the world. The difference is how you define it. They feel as if they are being forced to change into a more westernized culture because of our continued presence in the region. They didn't just wake up one day and say, "Gee, I think we should start hating the United States and their way of life." No, it specifically had a start date: The Gulf War. Here are the excerpts that support my theory from your links:

Bin Laden issued a fatwa, or religious edict, in 1998 that claimed that the United States had made “a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims” through its policies in the Islamic world.

In the early 1990s, Bin Laden emphasized his desire to secure the withdrawal of U.S. and other foreign troops from Saudi Arabia at all costs. Bin Laden condemned the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, criticized the international sanctions regime on Iraq, and voiced his opposition to U.S. support for Israel.

I have a lot of bin Laden excerpts but here is one in particular that is revealing, and clearly rejects the belief that they have declared war against the West for what it stands for, instead of what it does:

“Security is an important pillar of human life. Free people do not relinquish their security. This is contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example. …The events that influenced me directly trace back to 1982 and subsequent events when the United States gave permission to the Israelis to invade Lebanon, with the aid of the sixth US fleet… While I was looking at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the unjust one in a similar manner by destroying towers in the United States so that it would feel some of what we felt and to be deterred from killing our children and women” (BBC 2004).

Direct words from the mastermind himself. What about his words aren't clear? He doesn't mention the way of life, or the western culture, but our intervention, either direct or indirect as the sole reason.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 8:54 pm
by Addicted2Movies
Alright here's my question. If we accept your way of thinking, as in it is our fault, then what is your next move? What do you tell the American people who's family members and friends have been killed by terror attacks? And what if it happens again? What is your next step? I don't mean this in a mocking way. I'm legitimately curious.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 9:37 pm
by Skyab23
Addicted2Movies wrote:Alright here's my question. If we accept your way of thinking, as in it is our fault, then what is your next move? What do you tell the American people who's family members and friends have been killed by terror attacks? And what if it happens again? What is your next step? I don't mean this in a mocking way. I'm legitimately curious.
Well, my way of thinking is based on empirical data, from the terrorist themselves and using data sets, so again, it's much more definable and testable than the notion that they hate us for our way of life. And I don't mean this in a condescending manner, but you obviously didn't read my paper because I discuss all of those issues. But I'll go into it briefly here, since you have the expanded answers:

What do you tell the American people whose family members and friends have been killed? You show them respect and dignity and thank them for all they've done, and you thank them for their children's service to their country. You don't go into some discussion about the crux of the debate over whether it was our fault or their fault or what have you. But again, Osama bin Laden answered this very question, here are his words: "If there is a message I may send through you I address the mothers of the American troops. To these mothers I say, if you are concerned for your sons, then let them object to the U.S. government’s policy."

What if it happens again? What is your next step? Imagine yourself as a doctor. Do you suddenly prescribe a medicine without appropriately diagnosing the condition? Of course not. First, you have to diagnose the problem. The reason they are attacking us, and the reason they are recruiting people in droves to kill the United States (and practically only the United States, remember that next time you're convinced that this war is being fought over our way of life because there are plenty of countries that are democracies and have freedom of speech and women's rights) is because of our presence in the Middle East with military bases, our constant drone bombings, and our collusion with various affiliates in the region (Israel) that many Muslims view as decidedly anti-Islam and egregious to their way of life.

The threat of an attack goes down rapidly if we remove our presence in that region. Again, I could go on for 40 pages worth, all of the irrefutable evidence is in those pages, it isn't some sort of theory, it is empirical data, I cannot stress that enough. No, the threat isn't going to disappear over night even if we remove ourselves from the region, because they're not going to trust it's genuine. But I can assure you, we are breeding terrorists with our policies, and we are becoming more isolated in the world because of it.

My entire paper is about showing how suicide terrorism (including 9/11) is done to propel a foreign occupant from the terrorists' homeland. Here is an excerpt, from the paper, that is just a tiny marcel that proves, quantitatively, that our presence in Lebanon in the 1980's not only sparked suicide terrorism, but that it also had nothing to do with a radical religious agenda:

"Practices of suicide terrorism date as far back as the ancient Jewish Zealots, who attempted to liberate themselves from the occupation of the Romans in the year A.D. 66. One of the more recent examples of suicide terrorism against the United States occurred in the early 1980s in Lebanon. With an ongoing civil war within the region, as well as conflicts between Lebanon and Israel, the United States decided to intervene in the conflict. From 1982 to 1986, the group known as Hezbollah conducted a suicide terrorist campaign against American, French and Israeli forces in an attempt to compel the occupants from their country (Ibid p. 204). Expanding on what was previously mentioned; over 241 U.S. Marines were killed in 1983 alone, in the capital of Beirut (Mingst, Snyder 2011 p. 399). According to numerous martyr videos and written statements, the demographic information and motivating factors behind the attacks became even more evident. Approximately 71% of the Lebanese attackers identified themselves as Communists or Socialists, with 21% identifying themselves as Islamists and 8% as Christians (Pape 2005 p. 205). This information alone helps to dispel the common perception that this particular terrorist movement is comprised of a radical Islamic ideology. Among the suicide attackers were 6 women, one of which, Norma Hassan, was a Christian high school teacher. Yet perhaps the most stunning and useful information regarding the attacks is that once the foreign occupants left the country, all of the suicide terrorist attacks stopped immediately. Professor Robert Pape notes, “Since Israel’s military withdrawal in 2000, there has not been a single Lebanese suicide attack” (Kelly 2010). According to international and suicide terrorism experts, the campaign waged by Hezbollah in the 1980s began the recognition of the effectiveness of suicide terrorism to dispel foreign occupants.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 10:01 pm
by Addicted2Movies
Skyab23 wrote:
Addicted2Movies wrote:Alright here's my question. If we accept your way of thinking, as in it is our fault, then what is your next move? What do you tell the American people who's family members and friends have been killed by terror attacks? And what if it happens again? What is your next step? I don't mean this in a mocking way. I'm legitimately curious.
Well, my way of thinking is based on empirical data, from the terrorist themselves and using data sets, so again, it's much more definable and testable than the notion that they hate us for our way of life. And I don't mean this in a condescending manner, but you obviously didn't read my paper because I discuss all of those issues. But I'll go into it briefly here, since you have the expanded answers:

What do you tell the American people whose family members and friends have been killed? You show them respect and dignity and thank them for all they've done, and you thank them for their children's service to their country. You don't go into some discussion about the crux of the debate over whether it was our fault or their fault or what have you. But again, Osama bin Laden answered this very question, here are his words: "If there is a message I may send through you I address the mothers of the American troops. To these mothers I say, if you are concerned for your sons, then let them object to the U.S. government’s policy."

What if it happens again? What is your next step? Imagine yourself as a doctor. Do you suddenly prescribe a medicine without appropriately diagnosing the condition? Of course not. First, you have to diagnose the problem. The reason they are attacking us, and the reason they are recruiting people in droves to kill the United States (and practically only the United States, remember that next time you're convinced that this war is being fought over our way of life because there are plenty of countries that are democracies and have freedom of speech and women's rights) is because of our presence in the Middle East with military bases, our constant drone bombings, and our collusion with various affiliates in the region (Israel) that many Muslims view as decidedly anti-Islam and egregious to their way of life.

The threat of an attack goes down rapidly if we remove our presence in that region. Again, I could go on for 40 pages worth, all of the irrefutable evidence is in those pages, it isn't some sort of theory, it is empirical data, I cannot stress that enough. No, the threat isn't going to disappear over night even if we remove ourselves from the region, because they're not going to trust it's genuine. But I can assure you, we are breeding terrorists with our policies, and we are becoming more isolated in the world because of it.

My entire paper is about showing how suicide terrorism (including 9/11) is done to propel a foreign occupant from the terrorists' homeland. Here is an excerpt, from the paper, that is just a tiny marcel that proves, quantitatively, that our presence in Lebanon in the 1980's not only sparked suicide terrorism, but that it also had nothing to do with a radical religious agenda:

"Practices of suicide terrorism date as far back as the ancient Jewish Zealots, who attempted to liberate themselves from the occupation of the Romans in the year A.D. 66. One of the more recent examples of suicide terrorism against the United States occurred in the early 1980s in Lebanon. With an ongoing civil war within the region, as well as conflicts between Lebanon and Israel, the United States decided to intervene in the conflict. From 1982 to 1986, the group known as Hezbollah conducted a suicide terrorist campaign against American, French and Israeli forces in an attempt to compel the occupants from their country (Ibid p. 204). Expanding on what was previously mentioned; over 241 U.S. Marines were killed in 1983 alone, in the capital of Beirut (Mingst, Snyder 2011 p. 399). According to numerous martyr videos and written statements, the demographic information and motivating factors behind the attacks became even more evident. Approximately 71% of the Lebanese attackers identified themselves as Communists or Socialists, with 21% identifying themselves as Islamists and 8% as Christians (Pape 2005 p. 205). This information alone helps to dispel the common perception that this particular terrorist movement is comprised of a radical Islamic ideology. Among the suicide attackers were 6 women, one of which, Norma Hassan, was a Christian high school teacher. Yet perhaps the most stunning and useful information regarding the attacks is that once the foreign occupants left the country, all of the suicide terrorist attacks stopped immediately. Professor Robert Pape notes, “Since Israel’s military withdrawal in 2000, there has not been a single Lebanese suicide attack” (Kelly 2010). According to international and suicide terrorism experts, the campaign waged by Hezbollah in the 1980s began the recognition of the effectiveness of suicide terrorism to dispel foreign occupants.
Nah I haven't read the entire paper. It is like 40 pages long. I'm in the middle of my two weeks of exams so cut me some slack. I should've noticed the last bullet in your introduction signifies that you answer that very question but I haven't gotten that far so I apologize.

Thanks for answering my question anyways though. Good answer.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 24th, 2013, 10:21 pm
by Skyab23
Addicted2Movies wrote:
Nah I haven't read the entire paper. It is like 40 pages long. I'm in the middle of my two weeks of exams so cut me some slack. I should've noticed the last bullet in your introduction signifies that you answer that very question but I haven't gotten that far so I apologize.

Thanks for answering my question anyways though. Good answer.
No problem, I certainly understand how hectic finals can be.

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 25th, 2013, 10:10 am
by RIFA
Skyab23 wrote:Again, I rest my case. Straight from the perpetrators mouth. It isn't about us being a free and prosperous society, it's about our presence and involvement in the Middle East through war, drones and strategic alliances.
In 2013. And before that?

I didn't know al-Quaeda has motivations, legit motivations especially.

Empirical data... I've heard that term somewhere else. I know, it's called "statistical manipulation".

al-Qaeda and its motivations

Posted: April 25th, 2013, 10:50 am
by Jungian
The fact that terror-related Saudi nationals are protected by the US, says more than enough for me. "Al Quaida" and the Military Industrial Complex works for the same goals; Abusing fear propaganda as means for weak minded people to join their agenda, blown out of proportion.