Joey King was really funny in Family Vacation with Mathew Modine. Streaming on netflix if you haven't seen it yet.
Controversial opinions about movies
yogamble wrote:How can watching a film somewhere else make it a better than at home?
Your first problem is thinking of the twist in terms of Talia, but let's start there anyway. Talia's represents a more personalized form of blowback. The Dark Knight Rises explores Bruce primarily under that context to begin with, the physical, and mental consequences of every choice he's made in the city. Instead of writing a perfect protagonist as an altar for petty wish fulfillment-- the typical use of the 'hero' in these big summer stories -- Bruce's path was one with grave mistakes, and they've consumed him. One mistake was being naive enough to become indoctrinated by the league, another was murdering Ra's. That's important, because while Talia herself is an underperformed and underwritten role, by exploiting Bruce's rarely seen intimate side, her turn as Talia carries vital importance in bringing full circle the damage Bruce has left in his wake back to his forefront. It's why the reveal only makes thematic sense that late in the film: the final dramatic core of the film only functions if we have a poignant reminder of his actions. If you can't empathize with her as a character, you can certainly find satisfaction in her role within the internal logic of the movie, its significance to the main character, and the broader aspirations of The Dark Knight Rises as a whole. That alone makes it a flippin' fantastic twist, since in the span of a few minutes Nolan's given a neat thematic bow to some of the most important moments of the trilogy, bringing everything full circle. If only my posts had that level of economy.IWatchFilmsNotMovies wrote:You don't think Talia was insanely underdeveloped and the twist was rushed and meh? I mean she only had like 2 scenes actually as 'Talia'.Vader182 wrote:My opinions aren't a binary, lol. It is, in fact, possible to praise something while thinking other 'content' is in several leagues above it.
-Vader
But, that's looking at it strictly in terms of Talia. This is almost a technical point, but it is an important one. Nolan used the reveal around the 'child' to provide a one-two punch twist, and he used the expectations all of us fans had against us to do it. Let me explain. Fans familiar with the comics would identify Tate as Talia pretty simply. Not only has the League returned, but Bruce has a love interest, which Talia was in the comics. That'd be a big coincidence. Bane's reshaped backstory as 'the child' would seem like Nolan's typical dance of adapting comic elements to his own ends, so nobody would think twice and suspect the second 'twist', that Talia is in fact the child, not Bane. So, there was 'two' twists for the general audience, but there would be another, and more significant, twist for the core fans.
Finally, and most simply to explain, the twist deepens the most important relationship in the film-- that between Bruce and Bane. Continuing the motif of Bane as a tragic mirror of what Bruce could have been, both characters wield an innate self-sacrificing thirst to do justice and protect the innocent, and both are forced to wear a mask because of that attribute. They are both offered a path, and, initially, they took it. Without the twist, Bane's role as representing everything Bruce almost was, everything he's dangerously close to being, is rendered impotent.
-Vader
I think if a movie can't hold up as well by a substantial amount on blu ray viewing.... maybe it was not that great to begin with.
Vader182 wrote:Your first problem is thinking of the twist in terms of Talia, but let's start there anyway. Talia's represents a more personalized form of blowback. The Dark Knight Rises explores Bruce primarily under that context to begin with, the physical, and mental consequences of every choice he's made in the city. Instead of writing a perfect protagonist as an altar for petty wish fulfillment-- the typical use of the 'hero' in these big summer stories -- Bruce's path was one with grave mistakes, and they've consumed him. One mistake was being naive enough to become indoctrinated by the league, another was murdering Ra's. That's important, because while Talia herself is an underperformed and underwritten role, by exploiting Bruce's rarely seen intimate side, her turn as Talia carries vital importance in bringing full circle the damage Bruce has left in his wake back to his forefront. It's why the reveal only makes thematic sense that late in the film: the final dramatic core of the film only functions if we have a poignant reminder of his actions. If you can't empathize with her as a character, you can certainly find satisfaction in her role within the internal logic of the movie, its significance to the main character, and the broader aspirations of The Dark Knight Rises as a whole. That alone makes it a flippin' fantastic twist, since in the span of a few minutes Nolan's given a neat thematic bow to some of the most important moments of the trilogy, bringing everything full circle. If only my posts had that level of economy.IWatchFilmsNotMovies wrote:You don't think Talia was insanely underdeveloped and the twist was rushed and meh? I mean she only had like 2 scenes actually as 'Talia'.Vader182 wrote:My opinions aren't a binary, lol. It is, in fact, possible to praise something while thinking other 'content' is in several leagues above it.
-Vader
But, that's looking at it strictly in terms of Talia. This is almost a technical point, but it is an important one. Nolan used the reveal around the 'child' to provide a one-two punch twist, and he used the expectations all of us fans had against us to do it. Let me explain. Fans familiar with the comics would identify Tate as Talia pretty simply. Not only has the League returned, but Bruce has a love interest, which Talia was in the comics. That'd be a big coincidence. Bane's reshaped backstory as 'the child' would seem like Nolan's typical dance of adapting comic elements to his own ends, so nobody would think twice and suspect the second 'twist', that Talia is in fact the child, not Bane. So, there was 'two' twists for the general audience, but there would be another, and more significant, twist for the core fans.
Finally, and most simply to explain, the twist deepens the most important relationship in the film-- that between Bruce and Bane. Continuing the motif of Bane as a tragic mirror of what Bruce could have been, both characters wield an innate self-sacrificing thirst to do justice and protect the innocent, and both are forced to wear a mask because of that attribute. They are both offered a path, and, initially, they took it. Without the twist, Bane's role as representing everything Bruce almost was, everything he's dangerously close to being, is rendered impotent.
-Vader
Thats the most simplistic argument you could ever make with this. Its obvious you want the comic book lore spoon-fed to you much in the same way HollywoodRape moans about Nolan ruining Batman or like any other Avengers fan. Once you've seen the movie already and are watching it for the second time or if you're already aware of who Miranda Tate really is then you'll recognize that everything she does is purely as Talia al Ghul. Even in the comic books she was Bruce's love interest most of the time only to revert to an extension of her father so I don't even see an inconsistency with the graphic novels. As Vader touched on already she and Bane juxtapose Batman beautifully and even more so than Ra's/Scarecrow in Batman Begins (Ra's' abilities and Scarecrow's fear theatricality/Jungian archetype " persona, or the image a person projects to the world" both produce Batman). Bane is the ultimate physical threat and tormented symbol (coat, mask, Blackgate speech) that riles up the masses to deal with crime through a certain philosophy whereas Talia is the billionaire philanthropist with a duel identity and is the means for Bane to do his work (acquiring the reactor) that is driven to avenge the death of her parents. The whole pit story line fully completes the lazarus pit metaphor while the idea/means of Batman is reborn down there she is literally born down there as Ra's al Ghul's child and since one's offspring is said to be our only form/chance of immortality thus Ra's comic book thing. Her presence in the story of succeeding her father and carrying out his work is a successful precursor to Batman and Blake. Talia may not be the most flashiest of villains but the substance she brings to the story is almost equal to Harvey Dent.IWatchFilmsNotMovies wrote:You don't think Talia was insanely underdeveloped and the twist was rushed and meh? I mean she only had like 2 scenes actually as 'Talia'.Vader182 wrote:My opinions aren't a binary, lol. It is, in fact, possible to praise something while thinking other 'content' is in several leagues above it.
-Vader
Going back to what was said earlier in the thread, Rises is easily better than Begins.
Allstar wrote:I think if a movie can't hold up as well by a substantial amount on blu ray viewing.... maybe it was not that great to begin with.
This is mostly true, but epics do get a large boost from the big screen, no matter how good everything else about them may be.Allstar wrote:I think if a movie can't hold up as well by a substantial amount on blu ray viewing.... maybe it was not that great to begin with.
Allstar is just being an ass.Sandy wrote:This is mostly true, but epics do get a large boost from the big screen, no matter how good everything else about them may be.Allstar wrote:I think if a movie can't hold up as well by a substantial amount on blu ray viewing.... maybe it was not that great to begin with.
Also Vader... you need to lighten up. Not everyone has a damn projector. Some of us have to make due with a 42 inch. Oh the humanity.
I wasn't talking about a projector, I was talking about an IMAX theater. I have a pretty high-end 55'' plasma, and Rises just doesn't play like the same movie on it.
-Vader
-Vader
