Location: All-Hail Master Virgo, Censor of NolanFans
Crazy Eight wrote:
It just seemed all too terribly black and white for me when I read the books. The temptation by the ring was too magical for me to have anything to do with real life temptation. The same goes for corruption ... Mordor was depicted as such a nightmare, it was completely unclear by what exactly people could be corrupted here. These moral internal conflicts were just claimed, not believably narrated, so it was pretty unclear for me what the motivations of the characters were. There was not one character that I found interesting in the books.
A.) People were being corrupted by the evil of the ring... not Mordor, as I explicitly said.
B.) You realize the rings power was to overtake a creatures soul and corrupt it, right? We saw it numerous times, the ring corrupting or beginning to corrupt characters.
C.) The motivations of the characters were very clear: Destroy the ring at Mordor to prevent tyranny in Middle Earth. Along the way the characters... well, I've already explained this and won't do so again.
Re Schindler's list: It was pretty clear what was being gained by playing along the Nazi regime (after all, Schinlder got rich by doing so), and it was also pretty clear what Schindler would lose if he got caught, i.e. what he actually risked by his bravery.
It's not clear what the Fellowship is gaining? Saving their homes, friends, lives, ending tyranny and malicious evil for years to come... I don't think the films could have been anymore obvious about this point. They essentially spelt it out. If the Fellowship failed they would A.) All die. B.) All their family, and friends would die or be enslaved and their homes would be destroyed.
The stakes are as high as it gets...
I don't think I need to revisit the books or the films. I didn't like them, for the above reasons, and there's so much more I haven't read or watched yet.
You don't have to do anything. But don't enter into a discussion about something that you're clearly not familiar with.
I love you for this.
Lord of the Rings (both books and movies) are filled with almost anything your mind could think of. Every single detail of our human condition, every single detail of the good vs. evil symptom, every single detail that relates to the familiar. I honestly can't figure out what Alex is talking about right now.
It just seemed all too terribly black and white for me when I read the books. The temptation by the ring was too magical for me to have anything to do with real life temptation. The same goes for corruption ... Mordor was depicted as such a nightmare, it was completely unclear by what exactly people could be corrupted here. These moral internal conflicts were just claimed, not believably narrated, so it was pretty unclear for me what the motivations of the characters were. There was not one character that I found interesting in the books.
A.) People were being corrupted by the evil of the ring... not Mordor, as I explicitly said.
B.) You realize the rings power was to overtake a creatures soul and corrupt it, right? We saw it numerous times, the ring corrupting or beginning to corrupt characters.
C.) The motivations of the characters were very clear: Destroy the ring at Mordor to prevent tyranny in Middle Earth. Along the way the characters... well, I've already explained this and won't do so again.
A) That's the whole problem I have with the plot. That's just so cheap. Good people are corrupted my some magical entity. Evil people are just plain evil. Where's the internal conflict in that?
B) Yes. See A). In the real world, people are not just plain good or plain evil, they have conflicting motivations and goals. There are moral dilemmata, and mostly there is not just black and white, but huge grey areas. And that's interesting to explore. Happy hobbits "corrupted" by an evil entity ... that's boring. Sorry.
C) You don't understand what I'm saying. When people get corrupted by some evil, they usually have something to gain. What's the motivation of the allegedly corrupted characters in Middle Earth? What do they gain? Mordor is depicted as such a nightmare that nobody in his right mind would NOT want to join the resistance.
Re Schindler's list: It was pretty clear what was being gained by playing along the Nazi regime (after all, Schinlder got rich by doing so), and it was also pretty clear what Schindler would lose if he got caught, i.e. what he actually risked by his bravery.
It's not clear what the Fellowship is gaining?
See above. It's so clear what they are gaining that the thought alone that someone would want to join Sauron sounds ridiculous beyond belief.
I don't think I need to revisit the books or the films. I didn't like them, for the above reasons, and there's so much more I haven't read or watched yet.
You don't have to do anything. But don't enter into a discussion about something that you're clearly not familiar with.
You don't even understand the point that I'm making.
A) That's the whole problem I have with the plot. That's just so cheap. Good people are corrupted my some magical entity. Evil people are just plain evil. Where's the internal conflict in that?
B) Yes. See A). In the real world, people are not just plain good or plain evil, they have conflicting motivations and goals. There are moral dilemmata, and mostly there is not just black and white, but huge grey areas. And that's interesting to explore. Happy hobbits "corrupted" by an evil entity ... that's boring. Sorry.
C) You don't understand what I'm saying. When people get corrupted by some evil, they usually have something to gain. What's the motivation of the allegedly corrupted characters in Middle Earth? What do they gain? Mordor is depicted as such a nightmare that nobody in his right mind would NOT want to join the resistance.
A.) The conflict is fighting the temptation off...
B.) Wow. Seriously, revisit the story. The ring is still "alive" and causing havoc because man decided not to destroy it some thousands of years before the story takes place. The mythical side being that the ring causes some OCD like effect on whatever it's around to cause any being to yield it, the logical side being that the yielder of the ring will have power beyond imagination, which is tempting to any mortal in and of itself. Hobbits aren't the only characters in this film... man is depicted as the most corruptible and selfish beings. Either way, they aren't just "happy hobbits". By the end of the story Frodo can't even bare to live in the place he once loved because he feels so disconnected after his incredible journey and hardship. The one thing that kept him afoot through-out the entire quest he can no longer connect with. It's heartbreaking, and very much exemplary of the human condition. The Hobbits are very much human characters, the only reason citizens of the Shire are so happy is because they've lived shelter lives outside the hardships of Middle Earth. But when that was stripped away they were like everyone else.
C.) Read above. By yielding the ring you would have incredible power. The flip side: it's evil, tyrannous power.
See above. It's so clear what they are gaining that the thought alone that someone would want to join Sauron sounds ridiculous beyond belief.
Why would anyone join the Nazi's for any reasons aside from self-preservation? Same deal here. Join the side with the power. Saruman had the power, Hitler had the power.
See above. It's so clear what they are gaining that the thought alone that someone would want to join Sauron sounds ridiculous beyond belief.
Why would anyone join the Nazi's for any reasons aside from self-preservation? Same deal here. Join the side with the power. Saruman had the power, Hitler had the power.
If you really believe that then it's no wonder you think LotR describes the human condition best. I dare say a majority of people doesn't even care for power, and many, many wouldn't want to have power even of they were paid for it. People joined the Nazis and/or denounced their neighbours mostly for some personal gain, be it new career options (Reinhard Heydrich comes to mind who would never have joined the Nazis hadn't he been kicked out from the Navy), the neighbour's house or business, or some petty personal revenge. And then there were the tragic cases who really believed in the pseudo-religious ideology and thought they fight a just battle and save their country and race by opressing and deporting the Jews. But even from the majority of those people the government felt the need to keep the destruction of the Jews a secret. Himmler e.g. got sick to the bone when he witnessed the killings, and pitied himself for having to fulfill such a duty.
For a great example of how people get corrupted by such an evil, for an interesting character development and heart-breaking personal conflict leading to such corruption, I recommend "Swing Kids".
"Join the side of power": It's never that easy. And that's my main problem with the story.
And, mind you, I don't say the LotR is some worthless crap. It was an ok read, I just didn't like it enough to read it again or become a fan, and I found the movies outright boring. The question was whether I enjoyed it and why (not) - this is my answer and I stick to it.
If you really believe that then it's no wonder you think LotR describes the human condition best. I dare say a majority of people doesn't even care for power, and many, many wouldn't want to have power even of they were paid for it. People joined the Nazis and/or denounced their neighbours mostly for some personal gain, be it new career options (Reinhard Heydrich comes to mind who would never have joined the Nazis hadn't he been kicked out from the Navy), the neighbour's house or business, or some petty personal revenge. And then there were the tragic cases who really believed in the pseudo-religious ideology and thought they fight a just battle and save their country and race by opressing and deporting the Jews. But even from the majority of those people the government felt the need to keep the destruction of the Jews a secret. Himmler e.g. got sick to the bone when he witnessed the killings, and pitied himself for having to fulfill such a duty.
None of what you said negates or contradicts anything I've said, in fact it strengthens my point. People will join evil for fucked up reasons. You've answered your own question. Why would people join Saruman? Fear. Survival. Promises. Personal vendettas against man. And of course, just being sick fucks. And outside (non-org) civilizations did join Saruman's armies...
And, mind you, I don't say the LotR is some worthless crap. It was an ok read, I just didn't like it enough to read it again or become a fan, and I found the movies outright boring. The question was whether I enjoyed it and why (not) - this is my answer and I stick to it.
I never want to strip someone of their opinions. You have every right to not enjoy it, I don't care. But before entering into a discussion about it, I'd hope that you were actually familiar with the topic at hand. It's why I never argue about movies I haven't seen in years, because I'm not immediately familiar with the story. You've shown in numerous occasions your lack of knowledge on the story, as others aside from myself have pointed out. I've made my point- I'm done.
If you really believe that then it's no wonder you think LotR describes the human condition best. I dare say a majority of people doesn't even care for power, and many, many wouldn't want to have power even of they were paid for it. People joined the Nazis and/or denounced their neighbours mostly for some personal gain, be it new career options (Reinhard Heydrich comes to mind who would never have joined the Nazis hadn't he been kicked out from the Navy), the neighbour's house or business, or some petty personal revenge. And then there were the tragic cases who really believed in the pseudo-religious ideology and thought they fight a just battle and save their country and race by opressing and deporting the Jews. But even from the majority of those people the government felt the need to keep the destruction of the Jews a secret. Himmler e.g. got sick to the bone when he witnessed the killings, and pitied himself for having to fulfill such a duty.
None of what you said negates or contradicts anything I've said, in fact it strengthens my point. People will join evil for fucked up reasons. You've answered your own question. Why would people join Saruman? Fear. Survival. Promises. Personal vendettas against man. And of course, just being sick fucks. And outside (non-org) civilizations did join Saruman's armies...
I know all that ... that's why I wrote it. My point is that these things would make the plot a lot more believable and realistic for me from a motivation / human condition pov, but they are simply not there. Sure, you can infer the motivation for joining or not joining the evil side, maybe they're implied, but they are not narrated or acted out (at least not to any extent that I would expect for a movie that has has the batle between good and evil as topic), thus making the characters quite one-dimensional for me.
And, mind you, I don't say the LotR is some worthless crap. It was an ok read, I just didn't like it enough to read it again or become a fan, and I found the movies outright boring. The question was whether I enjoyed it and why (not) - this is my answer and I stick to it.
I never want to strip someone of their opinions. You have every right to not enjoy it, I don't care. But before entering into a discussion about it, I'd hope that you were actually familiar with the topic at hand. It's why I never argue about movies I haven't seen in years, because I'm not immediately familiar with the story. You've shown in numerous occasions your lack of knowledge on the story, as others aside from myself have pointed out. I've made my point- I'm done.
I AM familiar with the topic at hand. The question was whether I liked the movies, and I didn't. People started discussion with me because they found it strange that I found the books less boring than the movies.
But you are right, there probably details I have forgotten, but I really don't think I'd find the movies less boring would I rewatch them now.
