didich wrote:

Allstar wrote:^ It's a lot better than Avengers.

Not gonna enter this discussion. Oh wait, yes. I'm going to... Because I don't know why the hell the f*cking Avengers should be mentioned AT ALL (at least in my discussion, I agree about the visual effects part though).

Oh, God. Please, I know you have some kind of twisted hate against the film for reasons I personally fail to understand but move on, please.

And nope. Objectively, Prometheus was actually worse. In my opinion, Prometheus was actually much worse.

Allstar actually liked both Avengers and Prometheus... he's not hating on Avengers.

As for this Avengers vs. Prometheus thing. Let's just put it this way... if some have issues with the plot in Prometheus, then they don't have issues with the plot in Avengers because at a closer look... there is no plot. The characters and characterization is handled worse in Avengers. Performance wise... Fassy and Noomi both took a giant shit over Hiddleston who is like 1000% more popular on teens tumblrs. Visual style? Prometheus blows Avengers out of the water. Sound wise? Same. So where is actually Avengers better?

RIFA wrote:

didich wrote:
Not gonna enter this discussion. Oh wait, yes. I'm going to... Because I don't know why the hell the f*cking Avengers should be mentioned AT ALL (at least in my discussion, I agree about the visual effects part though).

Oh, God. Please, I know you have some kind of twisted hate against the film for reasons I personally fail to understand but move on, please.

And nope. Objectively, Prometheus was actually worse. In my opinion, Prometheus was actually much worse.

Allstar actually liked both Avengers and Prometheus... he's not hating on Avengers.

As for this Avengers vs. Prometheus thing. Let's just put it this way... if some have issues with the plot in Prometheus, then they don't have issues with the plot in Avengers because at a closer look... there is no plot. The characters and characterization is handled worse in Avengers. Performance wise... Fassy and Noomi both took a giant shit over Hiddleston who is like 1000% more popular on teens tumblrs. Visual style? Prometheus blows Avengers out of the water. Sound wise? Same. So where is actually Avengers better?

I didn't mind the plot holes in Prometheus. I somewhat disliked the plot of The Avengers because they were bickering for 2/3 of the film. They should've renamed it to "4 Men Bickering in a Laboratory". I did like Ruffalo's performance but Hiddleson was overrated. Fassbender and Rapace did an incredible job on their roles. The Avengers is good entertainment for when you get bored and have nothing to do, and Prometheus is good entertainment for any occasion IMO.

RIFA wrote:Allstar actually liked both Avengers and Prometheus... he's not hating on Avengers.

If so, I'm sorry. He could have fooled me (there ws still no need to bring it up to the conversation) but I still generalized and included him in a group he doesn't share, I should have not done that and I apologize.

RIFA wrote:As for this Avengers vs. Prometheus thing. Let's just put it this way... if some have issues with the plot in Prometheus, then they don't have issues with the plot in Avengers because at a closer look... there is no plot.

From my point of view, The Avengers is a character-related film. As I said in my review once, the film is not about 'a supervillain so evil and dangerous the world needs 4 walking superweapons to beat him' but about how those who have the power to do things could have solved them easily if they stopped acting like jerks and worked with each other despite their contrasts.

That was the, and it was handled in a great way at least in my opinion, so the whole 'Avengers has no plot' argument is, at the very least, refutable.

And if the The Avengers had no plot, then neither does Prometheus. That's my primary problem with the film, that the events are problematic when correlating with each other. We go from the Space Mission, to David personal problems about his raison d'être, to the scientist's IQ dropping 60 points, to ¡holy shit zombie!, to Weyland appearing and discovering Vickers is his dauther (Why was that important again? We already knew he considered David his son, but the revelation does not really affect Theron's character), to Weyland going to the Engineer to ask for inmortality somehow, to the Engineer wanting to KILL US ALL for some reason.

It's like they wanted to save the interesting, philosophical stuff for the sequel and said: Hey, we need something to fill the 2 hours.

RIFA wrote:The characters and characterization is handled worse in Avengers.

No. Here's when even Fassy loses against the Avengers. Granted, it's not the actors fault, but Damon's and his script with attention-deficit disorder.

The Avengers took its time to flesh out the characters and give them a quest which is explored throughout the course of the movie. I could take Loki, but that would be too easy.

As an unorthodox example I'll take the Black Widow: her first scene in the movie is typical IM2-BlackWidow-related stuff, i.e. beating bad guys and looking beautiful.

And yet, inmediately after this scene we see her character is more than just that, when we acknowledge her worries for Hawkeye. Then she shows her manipulative side and the fact that she's afraid of Banner in their conversation. In her conversation with Loki, not only her manipulative side is brought up again (establishing a sense of character continuity) but also a new facet of the woman, showing that she's ashamed and afraid of her own past and she sees the 'no redemption' paralelisms in the form of Loki. Her fears of Banner (who she see's as an unstoppable monster, maybe the way her victims saw her) are also ilustrated when we see her being terrified of the Hulk and then in shock after a confrontation with him (chapeau to Scarlett for that scene). And then, when she's able to save Hawkeye like he saved her, she brings the character to full circle, as she's willing to make amends with her past by doing good deeds.

That, monsieur, is a much more complete, interesting and logical characterization than anything we see in Prometheus, David included, as his character switches motivations (wanting to know what he is, infecting Holloway [Was it because Holloway was being jerk towards him? In any case, a pretty weak excuse], causing the Engineer wanting to KILL US ALL but then asking Shaw to bring him with her in her sequel-related quest) in an effort (by Damon's part) to keep him mysterious.

And this is without taking into account other character arcs. In The Avengers we've got Stark learning to be a hero, Rogers learning to reconnect with the world in the form of his companions, Thor accepting that his brother is truly beyond reason, Banner accepting himself, Loki realizing he's a failure... In Prometheus, we've got scientists doing bullshit, captain wanting to bang Vickers, Vickers causing the audience think she's a robot, Weyland wanting inmortaliy for about 15 minutes of screentime, Holloway getting angry and (fro unrelated reasons) becoming a zombie and the Engineer wanting to KILL US ALL.

Shaw would be in a better category than The Avengers if not for the fact that her characterization is also very clumpsy. the fact that she can't have babies is brought up so we can have a very gory scene (although they brought it up, which is good, at least), but her desirees to find God are quickly interrupted by said God wanting to kill her and, when the movie is over, she decides she still wants to find the Gods, albeit to ask them why did they want to KILL US ALL. Cut to black.

As I said, the film was more worried about gory scenes and visuals (even more that The Avengers) to give a good characterization to her. If a sequel comes out and they explore the characters, I'll let you say the characterization in Prometheus 2 was better, but this one is beyond saving.

RIFA wrote:Performance wise... Fassy and Noomi both took a giant shit over Hiddleston who is like 1000% more popular on teens tumblrs. Visual style? Prometheus blows Avengers out of the water. Sound wise? Same.

That's your opinion. I can agree that Fassbender was better than any other actor/actress in both films, but I disagreee when you say the same about Noomi.

Hiddleston was considerably better than her, in my opinion, as he gives his character, who's in the surface a villain wannabe, a complex set of expressions and layers to make his frustrations and motivations clear, but subtle at the sae time. RDJ and Ruffalo are, at the very least, on her same level if not better. I agree about the visuals, though, it had a more refined style.

RIFA wrote:So where is actually Avengers better?

Apart from what I've said? The script.

I know a lot would love kill me with falming torches right now, but The Avengers had a pretty good script. Below I explain my thoughts about the script which can be found in more detail in my review, which you can find here: http://www.nolanfans.com/forums/viewtop ... 20#p505236

Joss Whedon proves that writing is his greatest strengh, forming a coherent (if somewhat simplistic) history chanelled through the experiences of a set of characters who, while bland in the hands of another writer, truly shine in this film. [...] Depending on the situation, it’s able to be thoughtful, like when Loki 'monologues' the crowd in Germany, explains why is he going to conquer Earth to Thor (‘The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you ideally threat’), tries to mess up with Fury or thinks he’s playing Natasha, no matter how hypocrital his comments are (which is lampshaded by the Old Man in Stuttgart), they show that humanity’s darker side is always there.

The humour is smartly constructed, even if the amount of it may be excessive for some people, there is not a single joke that felt out of tune or out of character. It’s also very clever in the sense that it desguises some of the plot points of the film in the form of jokes, making it subtle foreshadowing. A perfect example is the ‘his name is Agent’ line, which becomes a tragic echo later in the film (bonus points for having both conversations in the same room) but another one I found very interesting was the ‘Galaga-joke’. As silly as it sounds, in the final act, the Avengers are basically playing a real-life version of the game: they have to fight hordes of countless aliens until Iron Man blows up the mothership. There’s a shot that made me relate both things: Just after the portal is opened, Iron Man flies and starts to kill the Chitauri in exactly the same way the game makes you do it.

On the other side, at least for me, it can also be deep within its own context. [...] Even if Coulson’s death per se lacked a je ne sais quoi to make the scene more poignant, later conversations between Fury, Tony and Steve show the motivations and reactions of each character very well. Fury explains what he really wanted out of the Avengers, in a speech which becomes interestingly metafictional ('It's an old fashioned notion') when you notice that, as ‘classic’ or ‘typical’ you may wanna call it, The Avengers film is a curious lighthearted Superhero movie in a time where darker and grittier adaptations are almost the norm (before the trend existed, Spider-Man 2 and the X-Men films were the Ur-Examples; Batman Begins started the trend, and then was followed by films like Watchmen, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, The Amazing Spider-Man, First Class...), Rogers thinks of it as another casualty (not very different from the ones he lost in WWII) but shows that he cares and Stark explains that, despite his abilities, he’s just a civilian who’s not ready for war, much less if he’s manipulated into being a soldier by S.H.I.E.L.D..

Prometheus, narratively, it's a mess. There's an implicit Darwinism vs. creationism thing going on that ping-pongs big religious and philosophical ideas, but that ends in nothing. Motivations remain unclear. Relationships are defined by wispy strands of plot (=stuff that happens), not human interaction... Similar too-muchness afflicts the action, which is disorganized or preposterous when it isn't frenzied, what with scientists wandering off heedlessly and touching stuff with reckless abandon.

In short: the higher they fly, the harder they fall. Promethues chew more that it could swallow. in short, The Avengers is a fairly simplistic film, which played safe, done masterfully. Prometheus is a film which wanted to be much bigger, and failed miserably.

Red Hood wrote:I didn't mind the plot holes in Prometheus. I somewhat disliked the plot of The Avengers because they were bickering for 2/3 of the film. They should've renamed it to "4 Men Bickering in a Laboratory". I did like Ruffalo's performance but Hiddleson was overrated. Fassbender and Rapace did an incredible job on their roles. The Avengers is good entertainment for when you get bored and have nothing to do, and Prometheus is good entertainment for any occasion IMO.

Completely understandable. From my perspective, the heart of the film is found in those scenes were you see The Avengers as real character, and not undeveloped action-figures. But precisely because those scenes were so important, I can understand thta, if you just don't like them, the film loses considerable quality. I understand that, if you were expecting a more action-packed film (which, relatively, it is, also) you were bored when they got concentrated in the characterization and human drama of the characters.

Hiddleston was not, overrated, I would, say, you can read my review (above) if you want to understand my notions.

By the way, I respect the notion you said it was your opinion, and did not consider it an absolute.

RIFA wrote:

didich wrote:And nope. Objectively, Prometheus was actually worse. In my opinion, Prometheus was actually much worse.

Why the lol and facepalm?

I said in my opinion. And I thing I've justified why I and only I think Prometheus is much worse than The Avengers (it's not that difficult to comprehend: I did not like Prometheus and I liked The Avengers a lot).

About the objective thing? Maybe I was a bit of a jerk but it's true. We could keep discussing and giving arguments for why a film is better than the other, so I can't find any other 'objective' way to defend my opinion other than sticking to the facts:

Prometheus:

RT: 73% and 6,9
RT Top Critics: 71% and 7,3
RT Audience: 72% and 7,4

Metacritic: 65/100
Metacritic Audience: 6,6/10

Imdb: 7,4

The Avengers:

RT: 92% and 8
RT Top Critics: 84% and 7,8
RT Audience: 96% and 9,2

Metacritic: 69/100
Metacritic Audience: 8,1/10

Imdb: 8,4

The Avengers is considered the better film. Then, i ask you again... Why the facepalm? I did not say anything that was too far away from reality. You have to respect other's opinions, independently on wheather you agree with them or not and, more importantly, if facts determine than both opinions can be correct.

The plot that you've just described:

the film is not about 'a supervillain so evil and dangerous the world needs 4 walking superweapons to beat him' but about how those who have the power to do things could have solved them easily if they stopped acting like jerks and worked with each other despite their contrasts.

is probably the stupidest plot I've ever read.

The Avengers is a good dumb fun movie. It didn't try to be better than what it was supposed to be. It is rated that way.

Prometheus had a better promise. It had high expectations, that for some it didn't manage to achieve.
I enjoyed both of those movies for what they were. But for me Prometheus has my preference because it was bold and took risks.

I don't think that Avengers is better than Prestige, Inception, Moon, TDKR, The Master and certainly not Prometheus. I could go on... .So using RT and MC to prove your point is not valid.

Every movie differs from the audience it's targeting, the expectations that it has and if it's going to deliver those expectations.
So comparing a PG-13 superhero movie and a R-Rated Sci-fi is not something I'll do. It's just a matter of taste at some point. I liked Prometheus but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy Avengers. For some it's the other way.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:The plot that you've just described:
Every movie differs from the audience it's targeting, the expectations that it has and if it's going to deliver those expectations.
So comparing a PG-13 superhero movie and a R-Rated Sci-fi is not something I'll do. It's just a matter of taste at some point. I liked Prometheus but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy Avengers. For some it's the other way.

I think Prometheus was aiming for a PG-13 rating but failed. I blame it on that infamous c-section scene.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:The plot that you've just described:

the film is not about 'a supervillain so evil and dangerous the world needs 4 walking superweapons to beat him' but about how those who have the power to do things could have solved them easily if they stopped acting like jerks and worked with each other despite their contrasts.

is probably the stupidest plot I've ever read.

In which sense? Any plot can be stupid, specially in the realms of fantasy. Batman? the story of a guy who decide to strike fear into the hearts of the criminals while dressed as a Bat. Star Wars? A farm boy learns to use magic powers and defeats an empire wthat has conquered the world where he lives.

The important variable of the equation is how you present the plot. The Avengers is a character related film, and their personal problems drive the plot as much as Loki's menace does. Prometheus is a story related film, and the events that happen are what drive the plot. The Avengers is a much better film in that aspect.

It's good? Yes. It's fun? Yes. It's dumb? Don't make the mistake to be fooled by that. As I already said, The Avengers is intelligent enough to know exactly what kind of movie it is, but it doesn't forget to tackle other areas like characterization (which, in itself, is the Plot of The Avengers) to make itself more complete.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:Prometheus had a better promise. It had high expectations, that for some it didn't manage to achieve.

That's a matter of opinion. On the surface, it looked it could have been better, but it failed when it was the time to materialize such expectations.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:I enjoyed both of those movies for what they were. But for me Prometheus has my preference because it was bold and took risks.

Completely understandable, I won't attack a personal opinion. You ahve to understand, however, that I don't see it taking risks. I mean,it was an horror movie, we knew peolpe were going to die, and yet the main characters are left unscratched. I don't see how this is taking risks.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:I don't think that Avengers is better than Prestige, Inception, Moon, TDKR, The Master and certainly not Prometheus. I could go on... .So using RT and MC to prove your point is not valid.

Completely understandable again, but you fail to understand what I was trying to say.

How would you say that, objectively, The Avengers is worse than Prometheus or viceversa? I already had given solid arguments to defend my opinion, I wasn't trying to prove my point with Scoring sites, they were just another example which is valid from a certain point of view.

And by the way, TDKR and Inception... they have higher score in MC and Imdb, so I fail to understand why you ahve put them as examples. Prometheus has lower in all the sites, is a different beast altogether.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:Every movie differs from the audience it's targeting, the expectations that it has and if it's going to deliver those expectations.
So comparing a PG-13 superhero movie and a R-Rated Sci-fi is not something I'll do. It's just a matter of taste at some point. I liked Prometheus but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy Avengers. For some it's the other way.

I agree with you but don't make the mistake of considering a taste more vaild than the other or putting ratings into the ecuation. TDKR is also PG13, and I think it's both better than The Avengers and Prometheus. Toy Story is better than a lot R-Rated films, and I could go on.

Red Hood wrote:

Mahiya_Borden wrote:The plot that you've just described:
Every movie differs from the audience it's targeting, the expectations that it has and if it's going to deliver those expectations.
So comparing a PG-13 superhero movie and a R-Rated Sci-fi is not something I'll do. It's just a matter of taste at some point. I liked Prometheus but that doesn't prevent me to enjoy Avengers. For some it's the other way.

I think Prometheus was aiming for a PG-13 rating but failed. I blame it on that infamous c-section scene.

What do you mean by that. Do you think they cut stuff from the movie that were going to make a hard R?

I think the fact that they went that way is more interesting for me because there will be more to explore rather than just try to fit the previous movies.

Having listened to the commentary from the writers and director. Spaiht's script was very different from Lindelof's in the way that Spaihts wrote a Alien prequel with facehuggers and xenomorphs throughout the whole movie where Lindelof wrote a script based in the same universe as Alien but not a direct prequel.

Mahiya_Borden wrote:

Red Hood wrote:
I think Prometheus was aiming for a PG-13 rating but failed. I blame it on that infamous c-section scene.

What do you mean by that. Do you think they cut stuff from the movie that were going to make a hard R?

I meant the content in general felt PG-13 to me. But the c-section scene came and I said "There goes the R-rating!"

Just stop talking about The Avengers, this is a thread for Prometheus.