Game of Thrones (TV)

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Panapaok wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 11:42 am
I think Jon is ok with his return beyond the wall. There's peace with the Free Folk and some of his happiest days were there. It feels more satisfying that he'll settle there, rather than staying in Winterfell. He never wanted to rule anyway.
At the same time, he lost his family again. Maybe with Bran and Sansa being King and Queen respectively, he'd be welcome to return and visit as he pleases (stealthily maybe, esp when it's arguable if the night's watch even truly exists at this point), but if he can't return, he'll never see them again. It fits for him being freed from the nasty politics of Westeros, but idk...not like this? At least there's Ghost and Tormund lol.
Also, the more I'm thinking about this, the "angrier" (as angry as you can be at a show lol) I'm getting:
Tyrion's whole "nothing beats a good story" schtick just falls flat. I 100% expected him to use that as justification for Jon. He does have one of the best, if not the best story of all characters. He's ice and fire for fuck's sake.
Also, I'm now wondering whether Sansa truly tried to free Jon as hard as she said. She ALWAYS wanted to be a Lady or a Queen. She said there were thousands of Northeners waiting in case the Unsullied harmed Jon. They didn't have to please them. But then Jon would've at the very least be back as the king in the north. I think she probably just wanted him gone, as sad it sounds. Jon got played. He fucked up, but I'm also struggling to see the basis of everyone in that house council claiming Bran as a fit ruler. They could've easily proposed the same "election" rule and then elected Jon. I know he doesn't want to rule, but neither did Bran. So I'm not even saying Jon *needed* to end up on the throne, I'm just struggling to understand the logic of this. The way I see it, the new rule doesn't even "break the wheel". The lords and ladies will now fight trying to manipulate others' votes for their gain so that they can instate a fitting ruler every time. It's the same game all over again. Maybe all kingdoms should've just claimed independency right there and then and fucked off to their respective ways.

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Now Where Was I ? wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 11:06 am
So about that Dragonpit scene
-Funny on its own, the Edmure scene coming two minutes after Dany's death was the weirdest tonal shift ever
-Who exactly is on this voting council? Why are Davos or Brienne there? Or Arya?
-How is everyone chill with the North declaring his independence? Just like that? How are the Iron Islands and Dorne not asking for the same if it's so easily given?
-Speaking of Yara, why does she laugh at the idea of democracy? That's kinda already the system there with the Kingsmoot.
-Grey Worm's behavior in the entire scene is ...??? He lets the prisoner he wants dead decide everything for the future of the realm
-I would have been far happier with Jon going to the North if it would have been from his own freewill, pleasing the Unsullied who just fuck off ten minutes later just feels so wrong. And for some reason, they want punishment for Jon, but not for Tyrion who was ALREADY imprisoned for betrayal by Dany herself
-Bran king is just lame, but it's honestly the least of my problems with the scene.
It just feels to me like the worst scene of the entire show, the worldbuilding and politics of it makes absolutely no sense and are not consistent with anything that came prior. I was ok with most of the rest. But that ten minute scene mostly ruined the episode for me.
I keep seeing a lot of complaints about these issues, and while I have big issues with the scene, I can address some of them.
-Davos and Brienne are on the Voting Council for the same reason Royce is there to represent the Vale. high ranking advisors to leadership.

-the Iron Islands aren't in a place to bargain. Their forces are depleted and they have little basis to demand independence. The North on the other hand just saved the entire realm up North and South and commands the bulk of the remaining non-Dothraki forces. Dorne's basically written out lol.

-The Kingsmoot has kings picked by boat captains. Not "commoners."

-Grey Worm does what he does because both sides are trying to avoid a war. He's supporting new leadership within reason, as long as he gets justice. This is why he gets Jon.

-Jon choosing to go up North on his own defeats the point. It's a price the viewer, and characters, don't want to pay for peace. "Bittersweet." I'll address the Unsullied leaving point to Ruth.

-Bran as King makes sense for various reasons, but I'll have more to say about this later. One of which is that, yes, he has a good story, but another is that almost everyone else on the council is either openly politicized or unfit. I think this feels weird mainly since Bran's been such a meme for two years, not the logic of it.
Ruth wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 11:15 am
okay so
now that bran is king and the unsullied with grey worm have fucked off to naath, can’t bran just silently overturn the decision and let our good boy jon come back??? did no one come up with this

i know this is dumb but like all this for grey worm??? i just ugh
I keep seeing this and to your most recent post as well:
The new King can't begin his tenure as a great moral ruler by breaking the first ruling of judgement that built his kingdom. Likewise, Grey Worm only left Westeros once he felt justice was done. As I said above, Jon as King wouldn't work. The Unsullied, Dothraki, Iron Islands (and probably Dorne?) wouldn't have allowed it. Jon is too politicized a figure, like Sansa as well.

It does all feel weird, but that's from the crazy pacing of the finale and season, not "what happens." Different problems imo.

-Vader

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Story problems aside, this episode was directed really poorly, and I say that as someone who doesn't notice good/bad direction, as long as it's done competently.

From that heavy-handed shot of the dragon opening its wings right behind Dany to shots just being really uncomfortably zoomed in to scenes boringly being framed with the subject in perfect center, you could really tell that the episode was directed by someone who is not used to directing (this episode was directed by the showrunners, if you aren't aware).

It could be that this episode sticks out only because it came up on the tail-end of five episodes directed by Game of Thrones's top veteran directors; maybe if the showrunners had instead directed the first episode, they could have gotten away with it.

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Vader182 wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 12:39 pm
Ruth wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 11:15 am
okay so
now that bran is king and the unsullied with grey worm have fucked off to naath, can’t bran just silently overturn the decision and let our good boy jon come back??? did no one come up with this

i know this is dumb but like all this for grey worm??? i just ugh
I keep seeing this and to your most recent post as well:
The new King can't begin his tenure as a great moral ruler by breaking the first ruling of judgement that built his kingdom. Likewise, Grey Worm only left Westeros once he felt justice was done. As I said above, Jon as King wouldn't work. The Unsullied, Dothraki, Iron Islands (and probably Dorne?) wouldn't have allowed it. Jon is too politicized a figure, like Sansa as well.

It does all feel weird, but that's from the crazy pacing of the finale and season, not "what happens." Different problems imo.

-Vader
which is why i said it was a dumb idea anyway. i understand all of this just allow me to feel pissed for a bit
i'm not even coming from the angle of 'jon must get the throne' anymore. he would've been totally fine as the king in the north as he was before, alas i have a hunch sansa wouldn't have allowed that, so he got screwed. i'm not one of those people who're like 'this show is trash pls refilm', i understand what it means from a storytelling angle, and i know the difference between not liking the story (i'm not even that lol) and criticizing the ways said story came to life, and i stand behind the opinion that it's grrm's vision, i'm just pettily bitching

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It seems like one of the main reasons Bran was picked was due to the fact he can't farther children, hence breaking the cycle of the crown being past down through bloodlines. Tyrion alludes to this when he talks to Sansa about the viciousness of the sons of kings. I liked Jon going beyond the wall at the end, he was at his most happy living among the free folk with Ygritte. He could find peace there.

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Ruth wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 12:31 pm
Panapaok wrote:
May 20th, 2019, 11:42 am
I think Jon is ok with his return beyond the wall. There's peace with the Free Folk and some of his happiest days were there. It feels more satisfying that he'll settle there, rather than staying in Winterfell. He never wanted to rule anyway.
At the same time, he lost his family again. Maybe with Bran and Sansa being King and Queen respectively, he'd be welcome to return and visit as he pleases (stealthily maybe, esp when it's arguable if the night's watch even truly exists at this point), but if he can't return, he'll never see them again. It fits for him being freed from the nasty politics of Westeros, but idk...not like this? At least there's Ghost and Tormund lol.
My understanding is that Jon is probably Lord Commander of the Night's Watch again. But there's barely any Night's Watch left. There's peace with the Free Folk and their leader is Jon's dear friend. Sending him to the Wall might seem like a life sentence but he can pretty much do whatever he wants. It's his decision to lead all the people beyond the wall to settle there and live peacefully, after all the traumatic experiences he endured.

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Don't forget,
In episode 4, Jon says he'd rather go North with Tormund if he could. Jon is tormented by what he did, but this ending may let him find peace.

-Vader

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As for the
"not taking bride and not having kids" bit, I think two women dying in his arms is enough...

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It's funny now to think of all the GOT fans who named their daughters after,
Daenerys and what her fate ended up being...

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So I'm assuming Jon's birthright as king was never leveraged to save his life (prior to the decision to send him north), correct? Because he would rather die (or be exiled ultimately) than serve as king? You'd think one of the Starks would have said, "Hey, yo, Jon is the true king," when he was rotting away, awaiting sentencing.
Am I missing something? :?:

Over all, I thought the episode, like the whole season, was blah. Too many things that felt contrived or thrown together. Has Martin made any comments publicly about this season? Just curious if the show really does follow what Martin plans to happen in the books. I hope Martin is smarter than that and truer to his own characters.

I was at Motor City Comic Con this weekend, and one of the panels that had nothing to do with GoT ended up having a discussion about this season. :lol:

P.S. to Vader: glad to know I'm not the only one who liked the ending of Lost. :clap: :D

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