House of the Dragon (TV)

All non-Nolan related film, tv, and streaming discussions.
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Master Virgo wrote:
September 6th, 2022, 3:20 am
As a result you feel like you know exactly where these characters are headed, and the path that they are on, is not as engaging to follow.
Ok, if this is so easy to figure out (without looking at the ASOIAF Wiki) can you tell us how Alicent, Rhaenyra, Otto, Criston Cole, Daemon, etc. will proceed and where they will end up at the end of the story? My guess is it will not be easy to guess what happens to them, especially since their stories are often tied to characters we have not even met yet.

For instance, of course you could say Otto Hightower is just a scheming asshole who sent his daughter out to seduce the king so that he can have more power and influence himself (and you'd have not a lot of difficulty finding examples to support that position) but then there are other ways to look at the character, as exemplified by the person who wrote an entire entry on the character here: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comment ... hightower/

See, what you get is a lot of nuance that is not always apparent at first sight and maybe tilting your head a little can open up a bunch of new perspectives and interpretations of both themes and characters. The richness of the material allows for it imo. Coming back to it is the same as people continuing to make Star Wars films that contain a bunch of elements characteristic of that setting.

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What follows is speculation not actual spoiler. But still some might not even want to read that much.
I mean I think it's pretty obvious at this point where they are taking Alicent and Rhaenyra's stories. They will resent how powerless they have felt during their lives to the point that they'd be willing to go very far to gain control of their own lives and protect what is precious to them. I'd expect they will become vengeful and cruel. Very similar to the story lines of Dany and Cersei in many ways.

Daemon is a little less obvious, it's one character they might save from the repetitive cycle. At least I hope they would. Most disappointing outcome, he will remain a near two dimensional asshole with only a pinch of nuance (His shallow love? for his brother, niece and fiancee), he won't get the throne or if he does it won't last long, pretty much the same as Joffrey, Ramsey, Euron and the other family black sheeps. He will most likely die a brutal death in his childish quest for power and self satisfaction, similar to them. Not sure, but it will be a tragic ending for him. Hopefully I'm wrong and they do something different with his character.

All the plottings of Otto will eventually backfire on him, even if it takes him some distance of the way. The same thing that happened to Baelish. I also expect that he will have a moment of truth with his daughter at some point, where he realizes how much pain he has caused her.

Viserys will leave a terrible legacy behind same as Robert. A torn kingdom plagued by his mistakes, weak leadership and all the wrongs he has done to his family and friends, and that would be the starting point to all the bloodsheds to come. It's clear as a day, how that goes.

I have no idea about Cole. We know very little about this guy and there would be no point in guessing since we are discussing characters who are very similar to some GoT counterparts.
But regardless, the point is, What we are getting in these first 3 episodes is way too similar in terms of character set-up to some portion of GoT. Even if I'm proven wrong and these characters take huge U-turns (which I sincerely hope they would, in a compelling way that is), was it really necessary for us to start off like this with so many similarities?

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Master Virgo wrote:
September 6th, 2022, 1:48 pm
What follows is speculation not actual spoiler. But still some might not even want to read that much.
I mean I think it's pretty obvious at this point where they are taking Alicent and Rhaenyra's stories. They will resent how powerless they have felt during their lives to the point that they'd be willing to go very far to gain control of their own lives and protect what is precious to them. I'd expect they will become vengeful and cruel. Very similar to the story lines of Dany and Cersei in many ways.

Daemon is a little less obvious, it's one character they might save from the repetitive cycle. At least I hope they would. Most disappointing outcome, he will remain a near two dimensional asshole with only a pinch of nuance (His shallow love? for his brother, niece and fiancee), he won't get the throne or if he does it won't last long, pretty much the same as Joffrey, Ramsey, Euron and the other family black sheeps. He will most likely die a brutal death in his childish quest for power and self satisfaction, similar to them. Not sure, but it will be a tragic ending for him. Hopefully I'm wrong and they do something different with his character.

All the plottings of Otto will eventually backfire on him, even if it takes him some distance of the way. The same thing that happened to Baelish. I also expect that he will have a moment of truth with his daughter at some point, where he realizes how much pain he has caused her.

Viserys will leave a terrible legacy behind same as Robert. A torn kingdom plagued by his mistakes, weak leadership and all the wrongs he has done to his family and friends, and that would be the starting point to all the bloodsheds to come. It's clear as a day, how that goes.

I have no idea about Cole. We know very little about this guy and there would be no point in guessing since we are discussing characters who are very similar to some GoT counterparts.
But regardless, the point is, What we are getting in these first 3 episodes is way too similar in terms of character set-up to some portion of GoT. Even if I'm proven wrong and these characters take huge U-turns (which I sincerely hope they would, in a compelling way that is), was it really necessary for us to start off like this with so many similarities?
I mean, flipping fantasy tropes on their heads is kinda the thing of ASOIAF and GRRM's work but it's not doing it for the sake of just doing Z instead of A in situation X. The set-up to me feels different because it is not a story of global proportions. It's more like a family drama that plays out mostly in King's Landing and the areas surrounding it for the moment. The time jumps are also not something we generally see in serialised fantasy storytelling and it makes the story feel more like Succession or The Crown but with dragons.

As for Daemon...there's a reason he's GRRM's favourite Targaryen. One of the greyest characters in his fictional world.

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I definitely thought of Succession (because it's the story of one horrible family, with too much power) and The Crown (because it feels more like a chronicle focusing on various key moments of Viserys' reign, than following a story). It's probably its scale and pace that makes it feel very different from GOT for me, even if the elements (small council, hand of the king, King's landing, rebellion...) are the same.

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See? No need for big battles to have an intriguing and compelling story.

Ser Criston Cole should probably read up on what happened to past Kingsguards who weren't careful with regard to their vows. Jaehaerys and his queen were not too fond of that.

Daemon remains the most fascinating character and I appreciate that the show keeps things ambiguous as to his motivations, whilst providing us with great scenes between him and all the other characters, Viserys most of all.

We also get to see more dimensions to Rhaenyra, as (aside from the obviously uncomfortable moment of the episode) she makes some rather questionable decisions with regard to Ser Criston Cole and Alicent. Also noteworthy that she does not care what common people have to say or that she would find it ok to shrug off comments that she might be humiliating her suitors in public (that would not be advisable to do).

Misunderstandings and lack of information (as well as lies) causing problems is something that did factor into GOT a lot but I don't recall a comparable sophistication in terms of communicating these things and the show is rather elegant in its restraint, given how less nuanced storytellers could handle this kind of material.

Cool little easter egg: one of Maegor's secret passages in the Red Keep.

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These new writers are such a massive upgrade over D&D.

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Allstar wrote:
September 13th, 2022, 4:59 pm
These new writers are such a massive upgrade over D&D.
D&D did incredible work in many seasons.

About episode 4, though McLaren directed a few episodes of GOT, this was the first time we really had an episode with a woman POV 100% assumed by the show. You could see how differently Kilner approached the characters, how much she wanted to approach each scene from the point of view of Alicent or Rhaenyra.
And of course there's the inversion of roles in the sex scene, where the woman seduces and undresses the man.
The first half of the episode is really all about woman sexuality in a time when it was to be repressed and only serve for the pleasure of men, the second half goes back to political schemes. A very quiet, simple episode. The smallest scale we've seen in the Westeros universe and the one time when sexuality which has always been such an important element of the show felt actually treated cleverly as a real important theme. And having Kilner direct it was a very wise choice from Condal and Sapochnik.
Such episodes are nice, and two each season would be nice, but for next week, I'm hoping for big stuff, for a change§

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The main 3 actors are so so good and with great writing this show just takes off

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Yeah, this episode was the best GoT content since Battle of the Bastards.

And I came to appreciate the performances of Alcock and Carey much more here.

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Daemon is just creepy, man. However, he's also charming when he wants to be and I like how Rhaenyra basically dared him to mess up her wedding knowing full well that he cares too much about her to ruin this very important moment for her. No, that role falls to another character in this episode.

See, this is what I mean when I say you don't know where these characters will go.
Ser Criston Cole is very clearly suffering internally as a result of his shame and the guilt he feels about breaking his vow of chastity and how Rhaenyra flippantly just pushes it aside and indicates that there is no real future in the relationship they have other than him being her paramour, which he considers to be an insult to his honour. On the flipside of that, however, he comes across VERY desperate when he puts forth the flimsy idea of him and Rhaenyra running off together to get married in Essos. He is trapped because in that previous episode he was put in a difficult position when he either would face severe consequences if he did not do as he was asked by the princess but would also face serious consequences for breaking his vow of castity (gelding and torture were mentioned and he's not far off from what the punishment for his bevaiour would be, mainly because the assumption is that if a kingsguard cannot be trusted to keep his vow of chastity there is no reason to believe that he would uphold all his other vows so usually the kingsguard might be executed fro what he did). It gets so bad that he obsesses over it the entire time and what it would mean for his House. Being a kingsguard is the best thing that happened to a Cole and he is now burdened with the knowledge that it is ruined because of a decision he made. There is no way to help him out of that situation aside from telling him that things will be ok and that someone happens to be the queen...he ends up engaging in nihilistic, vicious violence at the end against a person who by all accounts did not mean him any harm but was rather trying to get them both to cover each other's backs. There is no justification for it, yet it is clear why it's happening.
Alicent had a number of great scenes this episode, notably one where she talks to someone about one thing and they misunderstand what each of them are saying, yet they arrive at a truth that had been hidden up until this point. My favourite, aside from her making a point through her choice of garments, was her rather emotional farewell scene with her father whose reasoning becomes somewhat clearer, even though it is far from the whole truth and also we know that the road to hell is paved with the best intentions, Otto. You never tried to make sure people would be more comfortable with Rhaenyra herself so get off your high horse or don't....you have a long ride ahead of you after all. Her final appearance in the episode is both a relief to certain characters but also the prohesier of doom in a certain way. Also noteworthy that throughout the season Alicent has made sure to be on good terms with lots of different Houses, whereas Rhaenyra has not met a confrontation she has ever shied away from, which also meant she's alienated a lot of people or failed to make allies.

Gotta love the fact that the more Viserys' plans backfire, the worse he looks from a health perspective. Though in this particular instance everyone had worked out a solution that would have kept most people happy (I especially like the idea of them discussing the importance of the successors' last names, as they would be fairly important to them) but then a
Criston Cole-shaped
wrench was thrown into this carefully arranged marriage...I'd also say that I'd start questioning whether Grandmaester Mellos has his best interests at heart...or maybe it's just appearances and all the maesters are doing is disagreeing about the best way forward in terms of treatment. Seems a bit early to say. But just in case, I want to mention that House Hightower, the Citadel and the Faith all have their seat in Oldtown so they're all neighbours who know each other quite well.

Larys Strong is a well-spoken and sneaky individual whose motivations were often a mystery in the source text and who we'll see more of. Also gotta love how his brother Harwin just manages to control the situation at the end with barely any effort on his part. Also someone to watch out for in the future. He was about the only guy who seemed happy that Rhaenyra could kill a boar in episode 3.

The tension at the wedding during the last 15 to 20 minutes was exquisite. So many peole with so many different beefs all walking around potentially throwing punches.

It is also noteworthy that Daemon's problem with his wife seems to be mainly that she does not seem like the sort of person he can easily push around so his past comments about her seem petty and vindictive and rather childish, which once again adds layers to this devious snake. In contrast to Daemon's rather troubled relationship with his lady wife, we thankfully get one of the best couples since Eddard and Catelyn, namely Rhaenys and her husband Corlys, both of whom seem to truly understand and respect each other and who have their children's best interests at heart (though, of course, sadly Corlys seems to think one can just grow out of a preference for geese instead of ducks, which means he still has a lot to learn for such a renowned sailor).

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