I'd go farther than Virgo and say that Fantasy as a genre is inherently racist bullshit. Tolkien was a big simp for Richard Wagner, specifically Der Ring des Nibelungen, which lays the template and tropes, archetypes for Tolkien's Middle earth...and in tow all of Fantasy (the genre as we know it: elves, dwarfs, orcs and shit). Wagner's, as has been academically maintained for a long time, based the gold-loving dwarfs on jews, and wrote extensively on race science and the inferiority of the Jewish peoples.DHOPW42 wrote: ↑February 14th, 2022, 11:34 amIt's hard for me to see why this isn't a judgment of his person, but I guess this isn't the point. I don't know much about Tolkien's life and career, but as I am - just now - trying to find the source of the sentiments implied by you, it becomes somewhat clear to me that these points are valid, and have been made by scholars, but reality might be a bit more complex than that, and there is an ongoing discussion with regards to the perceived racism of Tolkien's universe and whatnot. And the discussion goes along the lines of whether the portrayal of certain fictional races and their geographical relations is something that is based in millenia-old mythological writings, or is it 100% the work of an author living in an era of Western civilazition that was much more oblivious to the issues of racism than it is today.Master Virgo wrote: ↑February 14th, 2022, 10:39 amHas there ever been any popular franchise or series completely dominated by white male characters for years that hasn't had a toxic alt right fanbase though?
Tolkien was a conservative catholic who supported the mass murderous fascist in Franco, during the Spanish civil war. The man who contributed to holocaust and someone whom the far right idolizes these days.
He wrote novels about the European looking people of west fighting the evil demons rising from the east (southeast to be specific) allied with brown skinned people with clearly Asian culture.
He literally pointed out in an interview that his gold loving earth dwelling race of dwarves are based on Jews. If you look at the language he created for them, it only becomes more apparent.
Now Tolkien might have done a lot of good on this earth that I know nothing about. Far more than I've ever done in my life. This is not about judging him as a person, but his legacy. You leave an image like that behind, there is nothing shocking about the kind of terrible people you might attract towards your work.
And I have no true answer - nor do the scholars, I presume, or anyone other than Tolkien -, but I'm sure the answer is a combination of these two (and maybe even more) factors. The same goes for the Spanish Civil War issue, where I personally wouldn't judge a person born 130 years ago for his perception of then-actual global politics of 90 years ago. This is just me, I'm not saying it's wrong to do this, but I have a feeling that it's definitely not a simple issue of saying "he was a supporter of a fascist regime", as this implies that he himself was a supporter of fascism. Which is... quite a stretch, I guess.
What I just wanted to say is that all these points made by you are valid, but doesn't the resolution of this problem lie in our capability as modern "thinkers" to be able to look at these issues with a more analytical view, rejecting singular, absolute truths? Because the very thing these toxic and harmful masses (i.e. Tolkien and SW fanbase) are doing is perceiving the world as a black-and-white place where good is literally fighting evil. And - this is not my judgment of your person, rather an honest question - aren't you doing the same thing by bringing up all these valid points the way you did?
It probably hurts no one here, as this is a random forum on an unrelated fan site, but I still don't feel that discussing the issues of the legacy of a 20th century writer the way you just did contributes to any sort of meaningful solution. If anything, I feel that it contributes to the growing and total misunderstanding of creative arts by young, toxic online audiences and self-proclaimed fans. To put it short, I have a feeling that if you say Tolkien was supporting a fascist regime and his universe is racist (without providing more acamedic context), the toxic fanbase will actually believe it and will have no problem with this statement. So you think you are shining new light on the troubled personality of a revered artist for these people, but they - deep down - are completely aware of this (misinterpreted, imho) reality. Instead, we should try to help them understand why and in what sense is it a misinterpretation of Tolkien's work. But first, you yourself need to look at these issues the same way, I think.
Sorry for the long post, I am just trying to make sense of the new terror of online existence in the 2020s. I watched the trailer, liked it, saw the horrifying toxic reactions to it, and it feels like one side wants me to hate the new TV show, and the other side wants me to hate Tolkien. This is just my perception of this issue on an emotional level, obviously no one wants me to hate Tolkien. But this is how it feels, and I am trying to make sense of it, and trying to see how we can at least try to mediate between these two groups of people, to maybe bring them a bit closer to each other.
Now, do I still listen to Wagner, yes, and did I love Tolkien when I was a teenager absolutely. Doesn't change the fact that Fantasy is dumb and racist and for dumb dumb children. Look at all those people who love Harry Potter, truly the most pathetic fandom.
