m4st4 wrote:Final version of allegory video:

https://vimeo.com/189876347

Wow look at all that forced imagery even though the art the film references is placed and framed in the same way. Seeing these comparisons made me puke. I am triggered that people can refer to Zack Snyder as an artistic filmmaker. OMG why do you keep bumping up this thread? ugh wonder woman is so sexualized.

movie

'Honey, I Shrank The Kids' > BvS:DoJ(UC)

no contest there

I don't think I can ever understand how the film's haters so easily deny any of its merits and act as if it's something along the lines of Scorpion King III, nor can I see how the film's admirers ignore the massive problems that are woven into its structure from top to bottom.

I guess people are just generally attracted to extreme feelings. Between Batman & Robin and The Dark Knight, there must be a middle ground somewhere.£

Master Virgo wrote:I don't think I can ever understand how the film's haters so easily deny any of its merits and act as if it's something along the lines of Scorpion King III, nor can I see how the film's admirers ignore the massive problems that are woven into its structure from top to bottom.

I guess people are just generally attracted to extreme feelings. Between Batman & Robin and The Dark Knight, there must be a middle ground somewhere.£

Film's structure was largely 'fixed' when WB decided to finally release the original cut, Africa scenes being the prime example. However, even though I'm an admirer it's hard to feel good about at least three aspects: Knightmare, JL tease right before the battle and three hour length, which is hardcore for G.A. There should be some objectivity even among the hardcore groups on both sides, which is why I disapproved how some of the members from the opposite spectrum here reacted to this movie. The rest I agree with as well since that's how I feel about most disappointing movies throughout the year... rarely any on B&R level since I really don't have the time, or courage, to watch Big Momma's House 3, Norbit, Sharknado sequel or whatever the fuck... The worst movie this year for me was Suicide Squad, followed by X-Men: Apocalypse. None of those movies are B&R bad though. I think in the last decade only Spider-Man 3 was that bad for me, talking purely from my theatrical, wallet experiences.

Master Virgo wrote:I don't think I can ever understand how the film's haters so easily deny any of its merits

I've been very open about what I think the movie does right, but this is really easy to answer but it's sorta long so hang with me.

The BVS conception of Batman is intentionally controvertial and intentionally abrasive and intentionally unlikable and intentionally radicalized all to the point that a lot of fans—certainly among critics and just about every single person I know in person and online—felt like Snyder's version of Batman was an enormous FUCK YOU. Batman's not just a killer but an unapolegetic one, a man who sees Superman, a character who are sympathies should be with given Man of Steel, as nothing more than an overblown nuclear threat. He's angry and unethical. It takes all the truly negative aspects of Batman's character and dials them up to 12 while dialing everything else down. His moral code is out the window.

As I have stated, I like this idea conceptually, and I see nothing wrong with bold iterations of familiar characters and stories. But when this is on screen, Snyder's Batman is coded not as an 'iteration" but instead as THE Batman. And what exasperbates the problem is that this is our introduction to the character. It would be one thing if we meet a "normal" background so we have a basepoint for this version, and then we have—gasp—character development INTO the murderous version in need of Superman's redemption. So we have absolutely no emotional investment in the character to give us conflict about this presentation. So in essence, Snyder gives us no reasons to like him as a character.

I realize most fans liked Batman more than Superman, I certainly did, but the fact that of the two of them Batman is the easier to root for just shows how poorly characterized Superman is. Once again, by subverting a familiar character archetype completely, one who's presentation in tone in the past has always been about pure optimism and A Man Can Do What a Man Can Do, embodying classic Americana good will and triumph, and making him a dour, joyless, unhappy husk who's completely existentially lost, well, wowza.

Now we have not one but TWO characters who are actively abrasive to people's conceptions of both characters. And because we can't be invested in them, we can't be invested in the ridiculously stupid Lex plot, we can't be invested in the big BVS battle, we can't be invested during the third act "sacrifice", and we can't be invested for Bruce's redemption. We can't really be invested in anything. So what you're left with is this kind of boring, meandering, soulless movie about a couple people you not only don't care about, which is a huge problem to itself, but that you find actively abrasive to the point of feeling assaulted. Or, as if Snyder's just saying... FUCK YOU.

Based on the dozens of reviews I've read, the many message boards I've perused, the many fellow critics I've talked with, the many friends who've wanted to discuss the movie with me, the many angry people on Reddit, Twitter, the many almost offended angry people who posted about BVS on Facebook: so just about everybody that I know who has to do with film, I really think this is more or less what happened. Now for me personally? I think this is, in theory anyway, a novel approach. I think the ultimate humanization of Batman and Superman this way is extremely compelling, and with the right approach could have been both something special cinematically but also something satisfactory to most film fans. I think the main fuck up was a lack of compelling characterization to begin with. We need to already be incredbily invested in BOTH of these guys pre-BVS for these darker, existentially despairing figures to reveal their hearts to us. And MoS clearly didn't do that for Superman for most people, and there's nada for Batman to work with. I think we needed a more uplifting MoS 2 + The Batman with a more conventional iteration before we worked up to BVS.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.


-Vader

Fair enough and well said V. I would like to add that my experience with social media reactions is totally opposite though, mainly due to my precise and deliberate isolation to negative factors (thank you NF circa March '16), so I'm basically surrounded with family and close friends who like or even love the movie and spend some of my online time on reddit/reading tweets from people who are generally favorable to BvS.

However, no matter where you (as in each and every one of you) stand right now, one thing should be clear for all of us: both Wondie and JL have to be no-brainer hits for the majority. I like to believe that can be achieved without sacrificing the artistic integrity, boldness so to speak.

I also think timing played a part in how poor the characterization was conveyed. In Batman Begins we see a somewhat similarily "broken" Bruce at the beginning, when he's willing to murder Chill in cold blood. This was Bruce at his worst, the lowest (morally) he's been in life. But Nolan uses it as the starting point of his journey, a journey that takes years, so that by the point he actually becomes Batman he's learned a lot and you can sympathize with him better. BVS Bruce's "redemption" is left "on hold" for future movies, because immediately about the realization he's been at his lowest (the "Martha" scene) the movie needs its plot to keep moving, so it was always difficult to properly buy it.

And while I liked Superman's confusion, I think the overall theme became somewhat muddled in the Luthor plot.

I agree the editing problems were (mostly, things like Knightmare excluded) the studios fault. My opinion of the movie improved after watching the UC.

Master Virgo wrote:I don't think I can ever understand how the film's haters so easily deny any of its merits and act as if it's something along the lines of Scorpion King III, nor can I see how the film's admirers ignore the massive problems that are woven into its structure from top to bottom.

I guess people are just generally attracted to extreme feelings. Between Batman & Robin and The Dark Knight, there must be a middle ground somewhere.£

I have not yet seen this ultimate edition, but for the theatrical version I don't think it's worse or even as bad as crap like Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, or Catwoman. I don't think it's fair to put it on that level. Nonetheless I do think it's a disjointed and convoluted mess with perhaps some but few redeeming qualities, and I don't think history will remember it too kindly.