I actually stopped talking to someone I knew because they thought this movie was trash and when we talked about it... they dropped it in the end to "It's just my opinion". That's what one usually does when he runs out of arguments.

RIFA wrote:I actually stopped talking to someone I knew because they thought this movie was trash and when we talked about it... they dropped it in the end to "It's just my opinion". That's what one usually does when he runs out of arguments.

Oh that's healthy

Yep. He wasn't a close friend ofc... so I took the right decision.

m4st4 wrote:I can and I just did. I have a history with writing essays around here and being shot down because of it so why should I waste my time? Cause that's what this site is all about: word economy, right? 'Explain yourself', 'Ridiculous', 'Dumb'. Somehow, every time, the entirety of who you are as a film lover, centers around a single entry. I'm not putting myself up on that table for judging folks, I'm just telling you the reality of how things go in my world. Whether you accept it and provide yours, or not, that's your thing.

Damn son, all I asked was for you to give me some reasons as to why you feel Begins is inferior. You don't have to write a thesis on it.

RIFA wrote:I actually stopped talking to someone I knew because they thought this movie was trash and when we talked about it... they dropped it in the end to "It's just my opinion". That's what one usually does when he runs out of arguments.

but


but ...



actually nvm

ChristNolan wrote:

m4st4 wrote:I can and I just did. I have a history with writing essays around here and being shot down because of it so why should I waste my time? Cause that's what this site is all about: word economy, right? 'Explain yourself', 'Ridiculous', 'Dumb'. Somehow, every time, the entirety of who you are as a film lover, centers around a single entry. I'm not putting myself up on that table for judging folks, I'm just telling you the reality of how things go in my world. Whether you accept it and provide yours, or not, that's your thing.

Damn son, all I asked was for you to give me some reasons as to why you feel Begins is inferior. You don't have to write a thesis on it.

Will you accept them though?

When you say inferior that sounds like Batman Begins is somehow less... that wouldn't be fair so take that list as something entirely personal and sometimes you just have to decide with your own gut feeling when making these. So it's not inferior just because I put it under UC, it's less of what I consider the highest achievement in this world than the other three, more like. That being said I think Begins is pretty much a perfect, or as close to perfect, superhero origin story (you once said he's not a superhero and this ain't a superhero movie, we still there?), on par with Raimi's Spider-Man or X-Men. The thing is, BvS:UC (the original cut of the movie), TDK and TDKR aspire to something greater, it's not just about Bruce and his inner discovery and finding that necessary strength anymore, it's about the entire city, its inhabitants (both good, bad and evil), or even the entire planet. In a way it's like comparing Gladiator and Kingdom of Heaven. Sure, Gladiator is one helluva movie, easier to revisit as well, but KoH paints on a much bigger canvas therefore I have to admire it more (Director's Cut, again).

As for BvS specifically, it takes these two greater than life characters and puts them in a grinder. I like how it all connects, from Africa to senate hearing to where they stand opposed to each other, to them finally fighting side by side. I like how it thinks about the complexities of our own world and puts them in a world where Superman exists. Much like the graphic novel that inspired it (one of many, only a few mention Kingdom Come and Tower of Babel), the media plays a huge role in shaping up the global reaction to something so distant and alien. That video mentions how movie has one screen too many in it - for a reason. Bruce monitors Superman's saving duties on a daily basis (there's visual proof of that), as much as the entire world scrutinizes his every move, and judges it as something good or bad based on personal prejudice and experience. Celebrity world cranked up sky high and a bizzare similarity to our own reaction to Cavill's Superman. 'He's not smiling enough' - should he laugh while the entire world is going mad, though? He's smiling when the world around him gives him enough reason to smile (with Lois, his mother, regular folks he saves etc).

I prefer the female characters here as well. Amy Adams' Lois is strong willed, capable, does some actual investigation and gets a lot of screen time. Holly Hunter is such a charismatic persona who knows how to 'wrestle a pig', even if said pig is ultimately playing a game that is entirely above her. And that's not even mentioning Diana who, with short amount of time they gave her, takes the third spot for me, although I thought she was fierce and royal enough. Whether Gadot is lead material, that's a story for next year.

The rest of the support cast is great as ever, Fishburne and Irons especially. But what takes the cake is definitely the underlying mythos that forms the crux of BvS, it's a story about humanity's potential for good and how that good isn't always out in the open and obvious. Each of these characters need to figure out the true good on their own: Clark climbs a mountain, as a man, inner monologue follows with his father, who tells him the secret key to his survival as a sinner, a man with all his errors, was none other than his wife. Domino effect follows so now we see Clark accepting that truth for himself, for now it is Lois Lane that will surely save his soul.

And finally, much discussed but often ridiculed - mothers. All sorts of loves in these grand lives but everything goes back to basics. Lex abducts both of Clark's loves, Bruce has none of it from the start. Some say Bruce is a wacko and not acting rationally - well he is. He's also struggling with himself ever since Jason Todd died, trying to tame the beast within (he'd rather go to Lex's party in a batsuit than in civilian robes, he's literally cooling himself off in one scene). His immediate repulsive reaction towards Superman goes on for exactly two years and Bruce is one dedicated man, taking him down takes some time, planning, it's way too risky from the get-go. And once he finally faces him in a glorified western brawl (cause that's what it is, boys' fight on a larger scale)? It takes one trip to the painful past ('and their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city') and one sight of a woman by Superman's side to realize something that's been lurking in his mind ever since he started to analyze Superman: this guy is simply a guy, trying to do some good, not a menace. Who am I to judge him for his sins while holding this spear, ready to take his life? Your second family were just collaterals, won't you accept it already? You can't SAVE THEM ALL. First time after two years that logic inside his brain clicks. Some say 'Martha' moment is stupid, it's not. Precisely because Bruce made that decision, clear headed one, it's the exact opposite. If you know Batman you know how rooted inside him that crucial moment is, you know how he's constantly going back to it, it's like Ruffalo's Hulk: 'The trick is I'm always angry'. My favorite shot must be that of Bruce holding a kryptonite spear in his hand, medieval imagery reminiscent of Boorman's Excalibur, same one that played in cinema when his parents died.

Eisenberg's Lex is a sick and perverted little man. It's important that he's little, compared to gods, it cripples him emotionally, that realization. That is until he becomes cold and calculative Lex in the end, again closer to Lex we know from comic books and series/movies. He goes face to face with the abyss (Darkseid and the cold vastness, indifference of space) and comes back bald, re-formed, changed. Pure evil. Eisenberg isn't always on the money, but when he is I appreciate his presence very much, especially on that rooftop. 'Mother of a flying demon must be a witch'. Elements both biblical and pagan clash in this movie (St. Michael is fighting devils in Lex's painting but also Bruce's dream in the crypt, with the black blooded man-bat coming to life), just as our titular heroes, and it's not even about them fighting, it's about them overcoming their differences (one is alien, the other is man). And to those who still think it's a 'dumb fight', do you really think Bruce is just there like a boy scout? That gas is lead, that grenade is kryptonite, he will put him down or die trying. Clark is just pissed by that sort of behaviour. He's also young and reckless.

So it all comes back full circle in the end, 'Men are still good', Bruce, as much as Diana, sees the potential for good in humanity, despite it's flaws (his flaws as well, for he is one of them). I don't know I could talk about so much more here, there's potency, and after seeing UC, there's also a continuous logic to it. I like how wacky it is at times, and moody all the time. Like that shot when Bruce wakes up and there's a woman beside him but it's not a bright comedic morning, instead there's fog across the lake and Bruce takes a pill then washes it up with some liquor, this guy is clearly paranoid already.

'Must there be a Superman' montage is impeccable in how it was edited and how it shows you all the different facets of humanity looking up at the sky and trying to cope with (new) reality. Death of Superman is a poignant moment, and its aftermath shows a true formation of a Superman we know and like: streets of Metropolis are empty, he's getting a grand, soldier's sendoff, but also a queter, real one, beside his closest friends and family. 'If you seek his monument, look around you', continued from MoS' 'In time they will join you in the sun'(although I'd also connect that one with JL since it's a trilogy).

It's a movie that challenges your view on superheroes and a much better Watchmen movie. It's completely left field, different, unique (but somehow meant to be mainstream), and understandably controversial but also entirely unnecessarily scrutinized to a point where I'm seriously hearing that some of you prefer bat-nipples, just to magnify your point? Really, commisioner Gordon in pajamas on top of GCPD, along with Chase Meridian in a sexy night gown and a highschooler Batman? That's our golden standard here? I know for a fact some of you haven't even seen it fully, or properly ('acquired through means' was once mentioned, that's before DVD/Blu release), due to either prejudice or refusal to give it any sort of fair shot.

That's what I was able to type on my phone anyway. I'd love to just go through the movie some day and talk about it properly, like that video did. All of this, of course, is my opinion, I'm not speaking for y'all.

Still haven't seen it but it just came to me that this has been like that Prometheus situation but taken to an extreme. People seem to love/hate this movie for reasons very similar to that case back then. From where I stand now on Prometheus I'm not sure I'll be able to blame either side.

prince0gotham wrote:Still haven't seen it but it just came to me that this has been like that Prometheus situation but taken to an extreme. People seem to love/hate this movie for reasons very similar to that case back then. From where I stand now on Prometheus I'm not sure I'll be able to blame either side.

£