Cilogy, you care because, apparently, you are a DC fan? Look, it's already pretty late (or early in the morning, why am I awake?) here, and I can't go point-by-point on mobile... but a lot of your points are a rehash of a singular theme: 'I hate Zack Snyder's style of filmmaking', a lot of it is your inner thoughs on the first three DCU movies (2/3 for Snyder there as well) and only the last paragraph or so is actually commenting on my first one, which is purely factual and not at all pessimistic. To answer the most glaring omission: How do you fire a guy who brings you 872 mil. on the table (5O%, whatever, minus merchandise and VOD/DVD/Blu), who basically gave you the very idea of creating a universe... after he's already started production of his next movie? BvS was released in March, JL started shooting in April. How do you stop a 150+ mil. production? I understand your feelings were hurt or whatever but doom and gloom scenario wasn't in everybody's minds after MoS...BvS... or even SS. Yes, I fucking hate SS but there are many who don't, otherwise it wouldn't have the second best sh legs this year (again, a fact).

Look, DC fans really want this thing to eventually shine, some of us are already more than happy with some aspects of the universe, it'll eventually get 'there' (wherever the fuck that is), but you can't call for a multi-billion dollar machine to stop and call THAT sane, you just can't. And especially if you're a fan. I have a headstart since it's two out of three for me, I'd probably jump your pessimistic bandwagon if it were three misses as well, but at least look at what's clearly happening behind the scenes post BvS' theatrical release (maybe even watch UC since it's what Snyder actually cut first - maybe judge that) and stop rehashing Hollywood doom and gloom scenarios that we already know backwards. The tonal changes, the jokes, the bts changes... it's all nothing until you sit your ass and see the whole structure of a movie for yourself - and judge it for yourself.

Unfortunately Wondie is still eight or so months away. So there'll be plenty more talks like this, here, and elsewhere.

Fine, we can hang it all on "you just don't like Snyder", but the problem is that he's been a crucial part of the whole process. The central theme being "I hate Snyder" rings true if only because (if what you're saying is true) of how much control and trust was mistakenly placed in his hands.

Again, I did not say they should stop, it doesn't make sense. My point is this ought to be Snyder's final involvement in the franchise.

Let's not fall back on the "but they made money" thing. Make no mistake, the films make money mostly because they're superhero films. People want to see Batman and Superman, period. Snyder made billions because they needed a guy to do it, and he was around. I mean, isn't that almost exactly Nolan's explanation for choosing Snyder? Because they just needed someone to get the job done quickly?

I also cited other examples of fuck ups and future worrying news; it's not just Snyder. For example, Goyer stuck around for far longer than he should have.

Look, DC fans really want this thing to eventually shine, some of us are already more than happy with some aspects of the universe, it'll eventually get 'there' (wherever the fuck that is)

Well, this is the kind of thinking that I think is part of the problem. It'll "eventually" get there. Granted, at this point, with 3 underwhelming films under the belt, it's all we can hope for, I agree. I mean, sure, hindsight is 20/20, can't change the past, etc. But I have yet to see an indication that DC is willing to course-correct.

I mean, we can make millions but also be good films right?

While I don't absolutely hate Snyder, I do agree with what Cilogy said. Having Goyer stick around as a writer for two more movies was a massive mistake. And having Snyder be involved in the DCEU in such a powerful position was another mistake too.

Snyder comes across these films from a total fanboy perspective. And you see that in the way he directs Batman and Superman. Batman is every neckbeard's dream and Superman is pretty much disrespected a lot in his films (read the comic book Superman Earth One. The plot is exactly like Man of Steel, but Clark was treated with so much more respect than he was in Man of Steel. He was given a lot of dignity. He was relatable but he wasn't brought down to our level).

I feel like to direct comic book films, or to even write comic book films, you can't be a total fanboy nerd like Snyder and Goyer. Nolan's Batman movies were absolutely wonderful because he came at these films from an outsider perspective and was able to recognize what works for a general audience (at the same time though, I still do see DC fans hating Nolan's interpretation).

As a DC fan myself, these films are absolutely great and enjoyable for comic book fans. But it's at the cost of isolating the general audience too and I don't think that's fair. And the filmmaking is incredibly rushed and sloppy too. Suicide Squad is proof of that.

It's nice to see Geoff Johns taking over. He understands these characters so well and I believe that he'll make these characters accessible to the genral audience.

akv1984 wrote:I feel like to direct comic book films, or to even write comic book films, you can't be a total fanboy nerd like Snyder and Goyer.

James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Russo Bros, Joss Whedon. All huge fanboys/nerds and made movies that both fanboys and general audiences love.

Allstar wrote:

akv1984 wrote:I feel like to direct comic book films, or to even write comic book films, you can't be a total fanboy nerd like Snyder and Goyer.

James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Russo Bros, Joss Whedon. All huge fanboys/nerds and made movies that both fanboys and general audiences love.

Oh shit you're right. I know that Whedon was always a nerd. I didn't really like the first Avengers movie.

I know that Gunn is big on DC comics.

Didn't know that about Sam Raimi or the Russos.

Bryan Singer hates comics and he made some good X Men movies though.

Cilogy wrote:Snyder made billions because they needed a guy to do it, and he was around. I mean, isn't that almost exactly Nolan's explanation for choosing Snyder? Because they just needed someone to get the job done quickly?

For Man of Steel, which is the only movie Nolan chose anyone for, I've never seen any basis for this. Nolan met with many directors and some of them (e.g. Duncan Jones, Darren Aronofsky) have spoken about the opportunity being one they wanted. Based on those three guys' comments, I'm pretty sure Nolan loved Snyder's take on Watchmen.

It's a bit weird seeing this sentiment here in as many ways as it has been expressed. There's a denial over the fact that he and Snyder respect each other as filmmakers and are friends.

I don't doubt that at all. It was clear Nolan saw some level of potential in Snyder and he had his reasons for picking him.

While I certainly exaggerate here and there that Nolan was a hack for making that decision, I still think it was not a good one.

akv1984 wrote:Bryan Singer hates comics and he made some good X Men movies though.

Yep, I think the point is you could be a huge nerd and be successful and you could also not ever read a comic in your life and still be successful.

@Cilogy, yes, it will eventually get there. Do you remember first three Marvel movies? The chanting goes like this:

Iron-Man... Iron-Man 2... The Incredible Hulk.

Not much of a resume, aside from lightning in a bottle, almost scriptless but eventually charming Iron-Man with a bit of a luck in casting RDJ. It took Marvel eight years to be where they are now and try to remember how you felt about them in 2008 (TDK year), 2010 (Inception) and infamous 2012 (Avengers vs. TDKR)... Not necessarily peak cinema amirite? Some say it's a different climate nowadays, you can't make mistakes, you ought to be in perfect shape from the get-go. Okay then, why Marvel wasn't on the same level as Raimi's Spider-Man movies and Singer's X-Men movies from the start? And that is, of course, only if you consider Iron-Man, Man of Steel and BvS:UC to be bad movies. I also hear the term 'connective tissue' and how Marvel movies are so seamlessly interconnected, cause and effect, movie after movie. Why are we forgetting the beginnings, again, when all you had was Nick Fury hyping up Avengers and post credit sequences with little to no meaning than to show you the next McGuffin of the movie? To create a perfect wave after wave first you need to have a big enough splash, and for Marvel it was The Avengers, first MCU movie to break one billion.

But let's not play kings and peasants, let's not be complete arses, back then you also had people who adored Marvel movies, who enjoyed them and believed in better future, just like you have people right now who enjoyed one, two or even all three DCU movies. You said 'people just wanted to see Batman and Superman together'. And yes there was a huge second week drop, left a hundred on the table. Fine, explain four weeks on top of home release charts, when Original cut arrived? Suicide Squad having legs? I'm saying, you can't generalize just because you didn't like it. Look at the numbers and be pragmatic about that aspect at least.

Back to Marvel, look at them now: Winter Soldier, Guardians, Civil War... brave & bold Phase 3. Do you honestly believe Warner Brothers will continue making same mistakes over and over again until, finally, they release a DCU movie below 500 mil.ww? Even if Doomsday scenario No.37 succeeds, which would mean that, get this: WW, JL and Flash, all three of them, sucked critically and financially.. you still have Wan who is a critical and b.o. darling, golden chicken. Statistically, you have at least one proper success. Scratch that, you also have Affleck directed Batman solo. Affleck, who never had a less than fresh rated movie in his career as a director. Again all of the above is a hypothetical 'D37' scenario, I'd like to believe WW will break the chains next June. Second, Snyder is leaving after JL most likely, have no doubt about it, but what if JL is a fresh rated movie that breaks a billion, what happens then? Still 'boo Snyder'? Is there any aspect, any instance of his career, where even the most avid haters can admit to his strengths? You say you're a DC fan but with your stance on his DCU entries I'm not sure how you'd survive most of New 52... Superheroes... with flaws, men turned gods wearing cowls and capes to hide their true identities. Geoff's 'DC Universe of hope' is what Bronze and Silver age represented, pre-New52 and what Rebirth represents now. The plan is to go from WW's WW1 pessimism into JL's 'Men are still good', a family of superheroes. Yes, they are most definitely getting there. The pacing is probably much faster now as a reaction to March 2016.

You call for blood because you disliked his take on the universe and you disliked Ayer's take on the universe (I did too), right now you are not a deciding factor, the machinery did not stop, all we can do is wait.

Godzilla wrote:

Cilogy wrote:Snyder made billions because they needed a guy to do it, and he was around. I mean, isn't that almost exactly Nolan's explanation for choosing Snyder? Because they just needed someone to get the job done quickly?

For Man of Steel, which is the only movie Nolan chose anyone for, I've never seen any basis for this. Nolan met with many directors and some of them (e.g. Duncan Jones, Darren Aronofsky) have spoken about the opportunity being one they wanted. Based on those three guys' comments, I'm pretty sure Nolan loved Snyder's take on Watchmen.

It's a bit weird seeing this sentiment here in as many ways as it has been expressed. There's a denial over the fact that he and Snyder respect each other as filmmakers and are friends.

Nolan also met with Affleck and he was Nolan's first choice. Because Snyder has the entirely opposite aesthetic of Nolan, which is a digitized fantasy full of computerized trickery and obvious examples of overwhelming CGI, I can't imagine Nolan saw his movies and went "Wow perfect for Superman."


-Vader