Westworld (TV)
Well Memento was written by Chris based of a story from J. Nolan... and Inception is great but I consider it less than Interstellar, The Prestige, and at least 2 of TDK Trilogy.Samuel R. Jankis wrote:Nah Chris wrote Memento and Inception by himself and they are amazing.ComptonTerry wrote:I use to think J Nolan was the better writer, mainly because most of my favorite Nolan films are the ones where he wrote with Nolan. I love Westworld but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Perhaps both of them writing together is just better than either writing aloneMaster Virgo wrote:I honestly think this material would have shaped into a masterpiece in the hands of Chris.£
That was a phenomenal finale to a great 1st season. 
May take on it:Vader182 wrote:
Armistice is so fucking badass! Finally that scene where she throws that dude through the glass happened, it was shown since the first teaser.
So,
So,
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No way Elsie is dead. And none of the hosts should be dead dead imo. As Dolores said, they're practically immortal, new race.
Alright, so. Westworldia. Oh boy.
- crazy, crazy convolutedness; way too much time given to things that could've been neat and concise
- twists that counter each other to the extent that you wonder what will ever have finality of consequence
- characters acting like they're c-h-a-r-a-c-t-e-r-s by spelling out their arcs in drawn out, literal dialogues (even the human ones)
- characters with overdramatized, pushed to the edge of reasonability motivation
- obsessive self-referentiality
- Westworld's roleplaying as its own type of "camp"
- mind games
- respawn after death
- stupid pissy coward scientists
- important one: the general intention of persistenly disrupting immersion/attention through all of the above or even merely through repeatedly switching between storylines/timelines
What's absent is:
- a focus on a protagonist
- making the "action" as much of a spectacle as the "themes" , because WW is a spectacle of the latter only, while the former is always subdued and limited to "roleplay", which itself only ever seems to exist in this show to be disrupted by the it telling you that that's roleplay and not reality. This might change in Season 2 (with better direction), which should be more action-packed, unless the show still wants to keep making a point out of the artificiality of eintertainment.
I think the WW shot itself in the foot with a pilot that, despite its own twist and turns, made it seem that there will be more clean, grounded normality to Westworld than there really was. The pilot set people's compasses on itself so that everything down the line felt off whenever things got messier, which is really what the show ultimately wanted. While it could've been more gracious though, we all know it's not the plot-holes that matter, but the fact that nothing distracts those that want to point them out from doing it, so in the end certain things are probably not even worth talking about. Like, if I look for an explanation for something that doesn't feel logical it wouldn't matter if I find it or not, it matters if enough people feel compelled to go on plot-hole hunts. What I think trumps lists of inconsistencies in WW more than it did in TDKR (where, other than how good TDKR is otherwise, there's not much reason to tolerate inconsistencies) is that at least here the essence of realism (and with it whatever "orders of logic") is not a standard, rather something that is questioned and deconstructed.
Like, 100% Westworld should fix these problems, but even if it's not quite Kojima-theatre, once the gloves and masks were off after episode 8 for me it worked in many and very similar ways as it is. I still get very excited by everything about it so I can't wait for whatever comes next.
On Logan and "chaos in Westworld" - I think the guards can operate as authorities and law-enforcers but I guess William would've had to do more than tie him up and strip him down for them to consider it anything other than a part of the roleplay.
Speaking of chaos and of Maeveris, as per Arnold's "journey inward and into a maze" idea, her decision to stay is an expression of her missing-top-of-the-pyramid-thing that would define/complete her consciousness even if it reaffirms parts of her programming. Since the beginning I had the idea that the hosts wouldn't/shouldn't have to become different people entirely in order to be conscious, because if they would then we're not conscious either, since we're just as much cause->effect driven (limited) and since evolution is nothing without involution too. I think it looks silly and even more diminishing of a breakout that was ridicilously implausible in the first place but in a sense that whole breakout had to be a pretty big thing for her return to be meaningful, so I don't think the idea is bad, just how it was pulled off.
I think/guess it doesn't work to the same success in movies but the last two episodes were so off the leash that Mr. Robot comparisons stopped being relevant and I started thinking of the whole thing in Kojima terms. Like, you got everything there:Vader182 wrote:thought the finale was super uneven but for the most part pulled off its big picture stuff in beautiful fashion, but...
....guys, it's god damn embarssing how little of this episode (and the show as a whole, really) makes sense... READ:
Seriously. I know the Nolans struggle with basic logic stuff while executing their big ideas more consistently well, but the Westworld finale is on another level of sheer brick wall dumbness I seriously question how so much got passed Jonah. Ugh.
-Vader
- crazy, crazy convolutedness; way too much time given to things that could've been neat and concise
- twists that counter each other to the extent that you wonder what will ever have finality of consequence
- characters acting like they're c-h-a-r-a-c-t-e-r-s by spelling out their arcs in drawn out, literal dialogues (even the human ones)
- characters with overdramatized, pushed to the edge of reasonability motivation
- obsessive self-referentiality
- Westworld's roleplaying as its own type of "camp"
- mind games
- respawn after death
- stupid pissy coward scientists
- important one: the general intention of persistenly disrupting immersion/attention through all of the above or even merely through repeatedly switching between storylines/timelines
What's absent is:
- a focus on a protagonist
- making the "action" as much of a spectacle as the "themes" , because WW is a spectacle of the latter only, while the former is always subdued and limited to "roleplay", which itself only ever seems to exist in this show to be disrupted by the it telling you that that's roleplay and not reality. This might change in Season 2 (with better direction), which should be more action-packed, unless the show still wants to keep making a point out of the artificiality of eintertainment.
I think the WW shot itself in the foot with a pilot that, despite its own twist and turns, made it seem that there will be more clean, grounded normality to Westworld than there really was. The pilot set people's compasses on itself so that everything down the line felt off whenever things got messier, which is really what the show ultimately wanted. While it could've been more gracious though, we all know it's not the plot-holes that matter, but the fact that nothing distracts those that want to point them out from doing it, so in the end certain things are probably not even worth talking about. Like, if I look for an explanation for something that doesn't feel logical it wouldn't matter if I find it or not, it matters if enough people feel compelled to go on plot-hole hunts. What I think trumps lists of inconsistencies in WW more than it did in TDKR (where, other than how good TDKR is otherwise, there's not much reason to tolerate inconsistencies) is that at least here the essence of realism (and with it whatever "orders of logic") is not a standard, rather something that is questioned and deconstructed.
Like, 100% Westworld should fix these problems, but even if it's not quite Kojima-theatre, once the gloves and masks were off after episode 8 for me it worked in many and very similar ways as it is. I still get very excited by everything about it so I can't wait for whatever comes next.
On Logan and "chaos in Westworld" - I think the guards can operate as authorities and law-enforcers but I guess William would've had to do more than tie him up and strip him down for them to consider it anything other than a part of the roleplay.
Speaking of chaos and of Maeveris, as per Arnold's "journey inward and into a maze" idea, her decision to stay is an expression of her missing-top-of-the-pyramid-thing that would define/complete her consciousness even if it reaffirms parts of her programming. Since the beginning I had the idea that the hosts wouldn't/shouldn't have to become different people entirely in order to be conscious, because if they would then we're not conscious either, since we're just as much cause->effect driven (limited) and since evolution is nothing without involution too. I think it looks silly and even more diminishing of a breakout that was ridicilously implausible in the first place but in a sense that whole breakout had to be a pretty big thing for her return to be meaningful, so I don't think the idea is bad, just how it was pulled off.
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Vader, man I lol-e so hard because all of that is true, except for the last part...
But yeah, if you're gonna mix up your storylines at least work on the believability of your world, otherwise it's fuck-all, anything goes, ALL THE TIME, and in the long run that makes me care LESS, or none at all.
When you think about it, most of Maeve's 'progress' was due to some guy working in a morgue, which is insane. Dude was like POTUS levels of tremendous power.
When you think about it, most of Maeve's 'progress' was due to some guy working in a morgue, which is insane. Dude was like POTUS levels of tremendous power.
Shoulda been played by Aidan Gillen for consistency.
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Any chance that
