Who do you think ultimately wins in the end, Batman or the Joker and why?

I think it's the Joker, because in the end Batman has to flee and Harvey dies, so... yeah, I think the Joker wins.

I'd say its a tie.
The Joker tried to let the poeple see that even one of the best persons, like Harvey Dent, could be broken. The Joker succeded in breaking Harvey, but he didn't succeed in letting the people know. Batman and Gordon cover up for Harvey, so The Joker has not won. But you can't say that Batman won either, he is now being chased.

I'd have to say that the film points to The Joker being the one who wins. Batman has somewhat of a victory with the people on the boats because they independently chose not to pull the trigger and become murderers. However, 2/3 of the people on the boat condoned blowing up the other boat so the victory may not be so hopeful afterall. Also, in the grand scheme, that victory doesn't matter as much because The Joker revealed that he had other plans, in his own words "You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you?". The Joker succeeded in corrupting Harvey, the one good man who stood for justice and was Batman's only hope for a normal life. If the people knew what their one hope, Harvey, had done, they would lose hope. Batman and Gordon decide to cover up the crimes BECAUSE The Joker has succeeded. In the end, Batman has failed and The Joker has won.

But can you really say that he won, while no one knows that?
The people of Gotham never saw him win, they never found out the truth, they don't know that The Joker had won.

Erik wrote:I'd say its a tie.
The Joker tried to let the poeple see that even one of the best persons, like Harvey Dent, could be broken. The Joker succeded in breaking Harvey, but he didn't succeed in letting the people know. Batman and Gordon cover up for Harvey, so The Joker has not won. But you can't say that Batman won either, he is now being chased.

This, when I first saw the film I believed that the Joker has won, but it was more of a tie.

joker wins by far


batman did nothing to the joker


while the joker indirectly killed rachel, destroyed Harvey, destroyed any chance of Bruce ever giving up his nightly activities, exposed to the viewers, that the majority of Gotham really ARE rotten


batman did what? got the joker caught? big deal...the joker was caught once already, and we all seen how that turned out

The story is incomplete. Though the jokers role in the series is probably over his impact will continue into the third movie where we will see who truly won the battle.

Erik wrote:But can you really say that he won, while no one knows that?
The people of Gotham never saw him win, they never found out the truth, they don't know that The Joker had won.

It doesn't change the fact that what happened, happened. Batman and Gordon decide to alter the truth in the end BECAUSE they lost. Right now, the people are living under the illusion that The Joker's plans were foiled, when in reality they succeeded.

Let's review what happened.

[*]Neither of the ferry's gets blown up, meaning people aren't inherently evil. Point: Batman
[*]Harvey Dent, the so-called White Knight of Gotham is turned evil. Point: Joker
[*]The people turn against Batman (probably?). Point: Joker
[*]The Joker forces Batman to break his one rule and indirectly cause the death of Harvey Dent/Two Face - though he was pushed to do it to save the kid. Point: Joker?

I think Joker ultimately wins out.

The 3rd film (if there is one) will probably focus of Batman's redemption.