gluvnast wrote: For starters, Batman did not save the ferries unless you considered Joker's plan B which was to blow both of them up as "saving them". The people saved themselves, and even with that the Joker was technically right considering the fact that those so-called innocent civilians voted FOR the prisoners to get blown up. It was only due to the guilty conscious of the conducter as the reason why that wasn't achieved and the righteous "criminal" on the other boat.

It basically goes to show that criminals can be good, but every good person can turn corrupted which was exactly the Joker's ideology with the successful turn of Harvey Dent as his proof.

The Joker won in that regard because he knew if the people learned about how Dent transformed into Two-Face they would all lose hope, it didn't matter that Gordon and Batman covered up this fact, just the fact the BELIEVED the Joker's ideology through that coverup is shining proof that the Joker won. If it wasn't the case then Gordon would of told the public the truth.

I agree with the ones who think it's a tie and that TDKR might show Batman winning over. In TDK it seems like the Joker wins but I don't think it's totally true.

I somehow do think that Harvey Dent wasn't really a good man, but yeah the Joker was able of corrupting him. I do not think though that if people knew about Dent being Two-face they would lose hope... Gordon did not lose hope. I think that if people knew Batman as Gordon or Alfred does, then they would know that some people are good and can stay true to themselves despite horrible things that may happen in their lives. Batman/Bruce shows just by being himself that the Joker lost somehow, that some people can resist being corrupted. But Batman has to stay a symbol, that's why no one can know who he really is, that's why the truth can't be told to the public (and also because as others stated before, criminals would be released if the truth was known) therefor the Joker won somehow. So yeah, it's kind of hard to tell I think

Great posts giuvnast and Batcat.

There's a lot of tragic irony about the ending of TDK.
The civilians spared the prisoners only out of cowardice. They thought someone needed to get their hands dirty, but they wanted it to be someone else. This resonates with Batman's decision at the end of the film: he can be the one. The problem is, this way the citizens avoid facing the truth. And so does Batman, in a sense (I think Alfred burning Rachel's letter is more important than it seems).
If Joker has lost, it's because of the Arkham prisoners and Gordon. The prisoners didn't give in to despair and inhumanity. And Gordon, as Batcat said, didn't lose hope even if he knew the truth about Harvey.

gluvnast wrote:The people saved themselves, and even with that the Joker was technically right considering the fact that those so-called innocent civilians voted FOR the prisoners to get blown up. It was only due to the guilty conscious of the conducter as the reason why that wasn't achieved and the righteous "criminal" on the other boat.

It basically goes to show that criminals can be good, but every good person can turn corrupted which was exactly the Joker's ideology with the successful turn of Harvey Dent as his proof.

The Joker won in that regard because he knew if the people learned about how Dent transformed into Two-Face they would all lose hope, it didn't matter that Gordon and Batman covered up this fact, just the fact the BELIEVED the Joker's ideology through that coverup is shining proof that the Joker won. If it wasn't the case then Gordon would of told the public the truth.

The Joker's ideology is that in order to be fair people need to let the chips fall randomly, with no control.. this includes the lack
of rules and most importantly a lack of trust..

Joker's ideology failed completely when he didn't get to see the fireworks.. he wanted to prove to batman and Gotham alike
that rules and morals don't matter when the very survival of people is at stake.. and doing the "right" thing can't save you.. the only way to stay alive is to act selfishly and give up that self righteous nobility we carry so proudly on our chests for superficial reasons..

simply put: the Joker believed that people are only as good as the world allows them to be.. and in a situation where they are
allowed to murder to save themselves they would do it in an instant.. and anyone who blindly trusts their conscience ( :batface: )
is a fool..

the ferry situation was a win for batman
if anything the Joker's ideology would win in the real world.. democratic countries voting for a congress and an executive branch that acts as executioner is nothing new..

Viral114 wrote:
the ferry situation was a win for batman

Yes Batman saved the situation... but the point was that the Joker is always a step ahead of the "game" ... his ace in the hole Harvey Dent ... made batman and bruce wayne lose... Batman lost his appeal as a hero, Bruce lost Rachel and Dent ... The Joker really messed things up, thats why they covered it up... the general Gotham public think Batman is a killer, a killer who killed their heroes. In the truth, the joker won, in what happened afterwards Gotham won.

Z. Cobb wrote: Batman lost his appeal as a hero, Bruce lost Rachel and Dent ... The Joker really messed things up, thats why they covered it up... the general Gotham public think Batman is a killer, a killer who killed their heroes. In the truth, the joker won, in what happened afterwards Gotham won.

look at the bright side..people have the symbol of Harvey's legacy to inspire them rather than an outlawed masked vigilante..
but i agree with you... i think Joker ultimately won in making Batman an outcast..

Viral114 wrote:

Z. Cobb wrote: Batman lost his appeal as a hero, Bruce lost Rachel and Dent ... The Joker really messed things up, thats why they covered it up... the general Gotham public think Batman is a killer, a killer who killed their heroes. In the truth, the joker won, in what happened afterwards Gotham won.

look at the bright side..people have the symbol of Harvey's legacy to inspire them rather than an outlawed masked vigilante..
but i agree with you... i think Joker ultimately won in making Batman an outcast..

+1

Viral114 wrote: The Joker's ideology is that in order to be fair people need to let the chips fall randomly, with no control.. this includes the lack
of rules and most importantly a lack of trust..

Joker's ideology failed completely when he didn't get to see the fireworks.. he wanted to prove to batman and Gotham alike
that rules and morals don't matter when the very survival of people is at stake.. and doing the "right" thing can't save you.. the only way to stay alive is to act selfishly and give up that self righteous nobility we carry so proudly on our chests for superficial reasons..

simply put: the Joker believed that people are only as good as the world allows them to be.. and in a situation where they are
allowed to murder to save themselves they would do it in an instant.. and anyone who blindly trusts their conscience ( :batface: )
is a fool..

the ferry situation was a win for batman
if anything the Joker's ideology would win in the real world.. democratic countries voting for a congress and an executive branch that acts as executioner is nothing new..

I agree with that post!
I'm not sure of the fact that the Joker's ideology would win in the real world though... I think good people really exist and won't become selfish eventhough the situation is at its worst.

Ultimately they both lost in my opinion. Joker failed to proove that everyone could become evil if pushed and Batman failed in the sence that Harvey Dent became a villain. But Batman did proove that he himself is incoruptable. They both lost Batman is now forced to become an outlaw but Joker didn't succeed in his final plan.

This is just my opinion but, really, the whole point of the movie is that there is no simple definition of winning or losing, good or evil. The Joker proves that chaos is mean to stimulate an escalation of other things, such as fear and distrust. And even though the Joker is a raving lunatic, even he, the maddest of the mad, has a thread of purpose in what he does. So you can't look at the Batman and the Joker's relationship as a competition, because, honestly, that downgrades what their relationship is truly about. At least in Nolan's universe, the battle between the two figures is about the duality of societal response.

The Joker responds to society in anarchy. He views the world as a playground, a toy to be played with and, more importantly, he sees the world as one that isn't meant to have rules. Where the Joker fails is that, despite his painful and arguably permanent exploits in Gotham, he views "rules" separately from "morals". To him, rules are created by political and class-based systems, and these things can be broken. So first the Joker takes those who administer the rules and puts them on a pedestal of frailty. In many ways, his plan works. Eradicate the personality of justice in Gotham and you expose the fear of the public. In effect, you instigate chaos. The reason why he fails is that, to truly create chaos in a society, you need to injure the heart of society: the people. While we see the ignorance and impatience of the people of Gotham, it is only because their lives, along with others, are in imminent danger. Rather than actually harnessing the flaws of society, the Joker merely exposes them. We already know that Gotham's people, like everyone else, are selfish to some extent. People are selfish. We already know that Gotham's people, like everyone else, pick fingers at those in the darkness (Batman). People like immediate answers. Thus, the Joker ultimately loses the battle of bringing down Gotham because he himself lacks the ability to feel true emotion. Where Raas Al Ghul felt pain and loss, the Joker is a blank slab of pure madness. He is the definition of chaos but...he is too extreme to be able to understand the human condition. In the end, this flaw ultimately leads him upside down and on his way to Arkham.

You see, the Joker moves the public in his first acts...instead of actually facing them against themselves, he "moves" them to do things that they wouldn't normally do to those who, as I said before, "administer the rules". It is only at the very end when we see the Joker's full intention: an "experiment" with people against people in a scheme that truly shows us what regular human beings are capable of doing.

In this sense, the Joker fails. But does that mean he "loses"? Of course not. Dent is dead, molded into confusion and chaos, instigating (what will be) a HUGE loss for Gotham. Rachel is dead, penetrating Batman's emotional core and family. Crime is now rampant once more, increasing danger on the streets once cleaned by Dent, Gordon, and Batman.

But did Dent truly fall into the Joker's line of madness, neglecting justice and what is right? Did Rachel's death truly defeat Batman, destroying his sense of morality? I really don't think so. Dent was always a man built on chance, and Batman will always be a symbol that brings death with it. The Joker merely exposed what was already evident in society...I don't think he ever truly accomplished what he sought.

But TDKR will really answer that for us.

I'm going to give an answer that goes a little against the grain of what everyone else wrote:

Batman won.

But his victory was Pyrrhic (meaning he won, but at a huge cost).

Think of the Civil War, when General Lee would lose certain battles, but weaken Grant's forced by attrition, overall giving the South the advantage because the North lost men in that exchange. allowing the Confederacy to stand up against the North as long as they did, given their significant disadvantage in resources.

Batman proved to the Joker that humanity overall will remain optimistic and benevolent, despite all of the troubles it has faced. And even if a minority of people can be corrupted (the people who commited betrayals were a minority), the majority of people are decent. The Joker's "plan" failed to actualize. By Dent's misdeeds being kept in secrecy, Gotham still had a ray of hope. Even if this result was because of a coverup, perceived reality is as real as real reality, in terms of consequence.

But Batman had to sacrifice a lot. The strength of the law enforcement and leadership in Gotham, his reputation and his ability to save people as well, many innocent lives were lost. Batman even had to unintentionally kill Dent, which only superficially violates his principle and is of no real consequence.

Batman won the battle, but not the war.

But Batman winning this battle gave the Joker a strategically better position in the war.