Baniac wrote:ancap27 wrote:
Bane clearly makes that point when he says "There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom.
It's actually "Every man who's rotted here over the centuries." I correct this merely to make a point: Bane views the pit as a place of rot and decay, physically as well as emotionally. Another reason why he brings Bruce there, to subject him to what he survived, showing Bruce that he lacks the strength and endurance of Bane (because, of course, Bane thinks Bruce will die there).
Very interesting discussion. The thread you have both pointed out that runs throughout the trilogy--youthful innocence, its loss and its preservation--is one of the most compelling aspects of the three movies. Two musical choices that help illustrate this theme is the usage of a boy's vocal in the music that plays when Bruce's parents are killed and when Batman is flying the bomb out over the bay. Both forlorn and hauntingly beautiful. The other interesting choice is Hans Zimmer's input to convince Nolan to use a young boy to sing the National Anthem during the stadium scene in TDKR instead of a well-known pop singer. An added twist to this choice is that Bane stands there, cloaked in darkness, appreciating the boy's innocent, lovely voice. Bane waits until the boy is done singing and has left the field before he unleashes hell. That illustration of Bane's appreciation of a quality singing voice gives us a further glimpse into who Bane really is (an intelligent, sensitive human, not merely a violent monster).
I, too, appreciated TDKR more than TDK because of how the third movie ties so well back to the first. I loved Ra's showing up in Bruce's delirium because it really showed how huge Ra's influence (for good and bad) was still on him so many years later. Then later we see a different (yet connected) image: his father descending into the well (an image mirrored by the 500-foot pit that Bruce now must conquer). Both men harken back to Bruce's youth--as a boy and as an angry young men who viewed Ra's as a father figure.
The orphan boys in TDKR offered us more symbolism. In the scene where Blake tells the orphan, Mark, about his brother's death, Mark tells him about the "good" things that life in the sewers (life with Bane) offers. No doubt his brother Jimmy succumbed to Bane's world of darkness, for he felt he had no other options. But for Batman and the hope he offered as a symbol Mark would have eventually gone the way of his brother. His belief in Batman survives through Bane's occupation of Gotham, and it's Mark who, when Blake thinks the worst (the bomb has been detonated), triumphantly exclaims, "No...it's Batman!" as if he had been expecting him to save the day; indeed he had believed he would. That youthful innocence compared to Blake's jaded, defeatist expectation. The child is proven correct in his undying belief that good would emerge victorious over evil.
Awesome, awesome point about Bane sparing the child from his destruction, and appreciating his voice. I always took it as him sort of mocking the star spangled banner before he begins his revolution, I definitely didn't notice how this moment connects to the whole theme I made this thread about.
In terms of appreciating TDKR more cuz how it connects to the first, I think TDK's connection is just different but just as profound, though I always defend TDK since it's my favorite movie. That said, the core idea of this trilogy is that a superhero can only exist as a symbol, an icon, and that's what Bruce sets out to build, and the whole series comes back to this idea of, as opposed to an actual superhero existing, this series is about forming and protecting the idea of the superhero. I always compare it to if other superhero movies were about jesus, presenting jesus as actually having walked on water ect., this series flipped the genre on it's head by instead making it about jesus being a normal man who goes to great lengths to create the myth of jesus for the people's sake, it's the core of why this series is so much richer then other superhero stories.
The Dark Knight is the embodiment of this approach, it ties the whole series together. Begins is wonderful in how relatable bruce is and this finishes Bruce's journey wonderfully, but the mission was always to create an icon bigger then a person ever could be, an icon who fills a god like role, Begins talks about this ad nausea, so TDK while less literally connected to the other two, is the most important story to the grander meaning and mechanism of batman. It presents batman as in fact being that symbol, larger then life, and then confronts him with the pandora's box of escalation, asking fascinatingly if an abslolute authority and symbol will in turn force the creation of a pure evil, a pure evil that will rise when the dark of society has nothing else to turn to, they had to find the one man who batman couldn't intimidate to protect their interests, and the joker's rise to power is mathematically Bruce's fault, it asks the all important question of if having super heroes, absolute authorities, would even be good.
And by extension, what it would take to still be that protector in the face of that evil. For starters, the Joker pushes Bruce to the bring of falling apart, forcing Batman to truly prove himself what he represents. More importantly, it presents order vs. chaos, it uses absolutes, to test whether humanity is capable of what Batman is meant to inspire. And when it answers that question, it reveals that being a true protector is to not rely on the symbol but to in fact be willing to be the bad guy.
In a plethora of ways TDK is equally connected to Begins as Rises is, it simply is the continuation of the batman story, where as Rise's is Bruce's. It takes Batman as is, gives him his match, destroys his facade (innocence/naivety) of a happy ending, shows that his mission is actually impossible in it's original form, and then reveals what it truly takes to be that hero and how different it is then the original mission. TDK is the core of the richness of this series, it systematically questions turns on it's head shatters and then redefines what being a super hero symbol would even be in the real world.
Also I think TDK's connection to Rises is just as rich, just not as visual and plot based as the Rises Begins connection. It's again about the idea, coming back to what Batman has to be and what his final role and true place can be, and also whether moral authority can sustain, showing burying the truth will expose through the cracks, and ultimately coming to the resting place that evil and its destruction is inevitable, and Batman must be equally immortal and forever. The original mission to change people and then get out fails essentially, a superhuman force of good will always needed to balance the pure idea of evil.
It's a series about the importance of immortal ideas and symbols (anything from the flag to the cross for example) to stabilize when humanity proves incapable of maintaining balance because of its weakness and corruption, it's the idea that must live on. It's somewhat cynical, as Bruce in Begins believes in people and that they can self govern, but in the end it's a series about the need for ideas bigger then people can ruin or tear down. It's about anything from the constitution to any religious symbol to any idea, it's about these ideas necessity to keep humanity on a vague forward path so that humans themselves can't destroy it with their weakness. It's a series about the importance of god like figures, even if said god like figure or history never existed, and thus TDK is the lynchpin to it all, and also why Rises owes it's Dickensian depth to it's predecessor.
Best. Trilogy. Ever.