Baniac wrote:

ancap27 wrote: Bane clearly makes that point when he says "There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom.

It's actually "Every man who's rotted here over the centuries."

Thanks for the correction. I just ripped the quote off IMDb. Sometimes they translate incorrectly.

Great to see the way this thread has taken off, when I first started it I wrote for almost an hour and then the thread just sat, and my time felt wasted, but this has been worth the wait.

Baniac wrote:

Queen of Hearts wrote:
Ah, yes...Talia. We haven't mentioned her as a child of lost innocence yet in this thread. She lost both of her parents, too, like Bruce and Bane. Such bitterness in her. Was it because of the pit or because of how her protector (the protector of a child) was treated by her father? For a child to bring down "terrible vengeance" through her father's hand upon those who injured her protector...that is some serious shit for a child. The way Talia says those words when she's telling Bruce the story...very chilling to imagine a child wishing such things upon others and feeling such deep hurt and hatred because of what had happened to someone she loved and who loved her.

Talia's story is interesting, she clearly has a bitterness that her protector was outcast-ed for injuries he got saving her, it reminds me almost of a soldier who comes home from fighting for his country but becomes an outcast because of his horrible ptsd, it's that concept of social injustice. What's interesting, and perhaps awkward writing, but meaningful, is her saying she never forgave her father, until Bruce killed him, and then she took up her father's life work. That jump from never forgive him to I'll die completing his work just feels awkward in the theater. That said, I believe it speaks to the anger bruce felt when he lost his parents, and how encompassing it is, she needs revenge the same way bruce did and ra's before him, it blinds her. What's weird with her character is how little she seems to care about the League's philosophy, she seems to be all about revenge, it speaks to that horrible anger you feel after that type of trauma, and how illogical it is, and how badly bruce could have turned out if he wasn't lightly guided towards harnessing that anger right by a slew of father figures (Gordon, Alfred, and ironically Ra's). Her character's mission feels weak to me still, but that weakness can be flipped to show the indiscriminate anger and need for revenge that comes with losing your parents, your innocence. I find it funny, however, when people say the twist means Bane is simply her protector and she was always the one behind the philosophical core of their mission, not only does Bane stand up as her protector without it changing anything, but it's Bane's point of view and how it is grown from his past that is much better laid out then Talia's, I still prefer to see Bane as the man in control, his reasoning for everything he does is just so much richer then Talia's you killed my father revenge. Talia the child fits wonderfully into the themes and narrative, i honestly am still not sold on Talia the adult, but no movie is perfect.

Baniac wrote:

ancap27 wrote: Bane clearly makes that point when he says "There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom.

It's actually "Every man who's rotted here over the centuries." I correct this merely to make a point: Bane views the pit as a place of rot and decay, physically as well as emotionally. Another reason why he brings Bruce there, to subject him to what he survived, showing Bruce that he lacks the strength and endurance of Bane (because, of course, Bane thinks Bruce will die there).

Very interesting discussion. The thread you have both pointed out that runs throughout the trilogy--youthful innocence, its loss and its preservation--is one of the most compelling aspects of the three movies. Two musical choices that help illustrate this theme is the usage of a boy's vocal in the music that plays when Bruce's parents are killed and when Batman is flying the bomb out over the bay. Both forlorn and hauntingly beautiful. The other interesting choice is Hans Zimmer's input to convince Nolan to use a young boy to sing the National Anthem during the stadium scene in TDKR instead of a well-known pop singer. An added twist to this choice is that Bane stands there, cloaked in darkness, appreciating the boy's innocent, lovely voice. Bane waits until the boy is done singing and has left the field before he unleashes hell. That illustration of Bane's appreciation of a quality singing voice gives us a further glimpse into who Bane really is (an intelligent, sensitive human, not merely a violent monster).

I, too, appreciated TDKR more than TDK because of how the third movie ties so well back to the first. I loved Ra's showing up in Bruce's delirium because it really showed how huge Ra's influence (for good and bad) was still on him so many years later. Then later we see a different (yet connected) image: his father descending into the well (an image mirrored by the 500-foot pit that Bruce now must conquer). Both men harken back to Bruce's youth--as a boy and as an angry young men who viewed Ra's as a father figure.

The orphan boys in TDKR offered us more symbolism. In the scene where Blake tells the orphan, Mark, about his brother's death, Mark tells him about the "good" things that life in the sewers (life with Bane) offers. No doubt his brother Jimmy succumbed to Bane's world of darkness, for he felt he had no other options. But for Batman and the hope he offered as a symbol Mark would have eventually gone the way of his brother. His belief in Batman survives through Bane's occupation of Gotham, and it's Mark who, when Blake thinks the worst (the bomb has been detonated), triumphantly exclaims, "No...it's Batman!" as if he had been expecting him to save the day; indeed he had believed he would. That youthful innocence compared to Blake's jaded, defeatist expectation. The child is proven correct in his undying belief that good would emerge victorious over evil.

Awesome, awesome point about Bane sparing the child from his destruction, and appreciating his voice. I always took it as him sort of mocking the star spangled banner before he begins his revolution, I definitely didn't notice how this moment connects to the whole theme I made this thread about.

In terms of appreciating TDKR more cuz how it connects to the first, I think TDK's connection is just different but just as profound, though I always defend TDK since it's my favorite movie. That said, the core idea of this trilogy is that a superhero can only exist as a symbol, an icon, and that's what Bruce sets out to build, and the whole series comes back to this idea of, as opposed to an actual superhero existing, this series is about forming and protecting the idea of the superhero. I always compare it to if other superhero movies were about jesus, presenting jesus as actually having walked on water ect., this series flipped the genre on it's head by instead making it about jesus being a normal man who goes to great lengths to create the myth of jesus for the people's sake, it's the core of why this series is so much richer then other superhero stories.

The Dark Knight is the embodiment of this approach, it ties the whole series together. Begins is wonderful in how relatable bruce is and this finishes Bruce's journey wonderfully, but the mission was always to create an icon bigger then a person ever could be, an icon who fills a god like role, Begins talks about this ad nausea, so TDK while less literally connected to the other two, is the most important story to the grander meaning and mechanism of batman. It presents batman as in fact being that symbol, larger then life, and then confronts him with the pandora's box of escalation, asking fascinatingly if an abslolute authority and symbol will in turn force the creation of a pure evil, a pure evil that will rise when the dark of society has nothing else to turn to, they had to find the one man who batman couldn't intimidate to protect their interests, and the joker's rise to power is mathematically Bruce's fault, it asks the all important question of if having super heroes, absolute authorities, would even be good.
And by extension, what it would take to still be that protector in the face of that evil. For starters, the Joker pushes Bruce to the bring of falling apart, forcing Batman to truly prove himself what he represents. More importantly, it presents order vs. chaos, it uses absolutes, to test whether humanity is capable of what Batman is meant to inspire. And when it answers that question, it reveals that being a true protector is to not rely on the symbol but to in fact be willing to be the bad guy.

In a plethora of ways TDK is equally connected to Begins as Rises is, it simply is the continuation of the batman story, where as Rise's is Bruce's. It takes Batman as is, gives him his match, destroys his facade (innocence/naivety) of a happy ending, shows that his mission is actually impossible in it's original form, and then reveals what it truly takes to be that hero and how different it is then the original mission. TDK is the core of the richness of this series, it systematically questions turns on it's head shatters and then redefines what being a super hero symbol would even be in the real world.

Also I think TDK's connection to Rises is just as rich, just not as visual and plot based as the Rises Begins connection. It's again about the idea, coming back to what Batman has to be and what his final role and true place can be, and also whether moral authority can sustain, showing burying the truth will expose through the cracks, and ultimately coming to the resting place that evil and its destruction is inevitable, and Batman must be equally immortal and forever. The original mission to change people and then get out fails essentially, a superhuman force of good will always needed to balance the pure idea of evil.

It's a series about the importance of immortal ideas and symbols (anything from the flag to the cross for example) to stabilize when humanity proves incapable of maintaining balance because of its weakness and corruption, it's the idea that must live on. It's somewhat cynical, as Bruce in Begins believes in people and that they can self govern, but in the end it's a series about the need for ideas bigger then people can ruin or tear down. It's about anything from the constitution to any religious symbol to any idea, it's about these ideas necessity to keep humanity on a vague forward path so that humans themselves can't destroy it with their weakness. It's a series about the importance of god like figures, even if said god like figure or history never existed, and thus TDK is the lynchpin to it all, and also why Rises owes it's Dickensian depth to it's predecessor.

Best. Trilogy. Ever.

dustbust5 wrote:Great to see the way this thread has taken off, when I first started it I wrote for almost an hour and then the thread just sat, and my time felt wasted, but this has been worth the wait.

Baniac wrote:

Talia's story is interesting, she clearly has a bitterness that her protector was outcast-ed for injuries he got saving her, it reminds me almost of a soldier who comes home from fighting for his country but becomes an outcast because of his horrible ptsd, it's that concept of social injustice. What's interesting, and perhaps awkward writing, but meaningful, is her saying she never forgave her father, until Bruce killed him, and then she took up her father's life work. That jump from never forgive him to I'll die completing his work just feels awkward in the theater. That said, I believe it speaks to the anger bruce felt when he lost his parents, and how encompassing it is, she needs revenge the same way bruce did and ra's before him, it blinds her. What's weird with her character is how little she seems to care about the League's philosophy, she seems to be all about revenge, it speaks to that horrible anger you feel after that type of trauma, and how illogical it is, and how badly bruce could have turned out if he wasn't lightly guided towards harnessing that anger right by a slew of father figures (Gordon, Alfred, and ironically Ra's). Her character's mission feels weak to me still, but that weakness can be flipped to show the indiscriminate anger and need for revenge that comes with losing your parents, your innocence. I find it funny, however, when people say the twist means Bane is simply her protector and she was always the one behind the philosophical core of their mission, not only does Bane stand up as her protector without it changing anything, but it's Bane's point of view and how it is grown from his past that is much better laid out then Talia's, I still prefer to see Bane as the man in control, his reasoning for everything he does is just so much richer then Talia's you killed my father revenge. Talia the child fits wonderfully into the themes and narrative, i honestly am still not sold on Talia the adult, but no movie is perfect.

Actually it works on a psychological level in that when an adult child has a falling out with a loved parent (and no doubt Talia did indeed love her father) and then that parent dies before they can reconcile it often leaves a deep feeling of guilt in the surviving child (and vice versa with a parent when a child dies before they reconcile). Ra's rejection of Bane wouldn't have hurt Talia as much if she didn't love her father and want his approval (added to the fact that she no doubt knew Bane wanted Ra's approval as well, both as a member of the League and as Talia's protector). Talia's guilt over the falling out would have added to her drive to avenge his death and see his plan through to the end.

It may sound like psycho-babble to some, but the fact is that our childhoods do indeed influence the rest of our lives.

Baniac wrote:

dustbust5 wrote:Great to see the way this thread has taken off, when I first started it I wrote for almost an hour and then the thread just sat, and my time felt wasted, but this has been worth the wait.



Talia's story is interesting, she clearly has a bitterness that her protector was outcast-ed for injuries he got saving her, it reminds me almost of a soldier who comes home from fighting for his country but becomes an outcast because of his horrible ptsd, it's that concept of social injustice. What's interesting, and perhaps awkward writing, but meaningful, is her saying she never forgave her father, until Bruce killed him, and then she took up her father's life work. That jump from never forgive him to I'll die completing his work just feels awkward in the theater. That said, I believe it speaks to the anger bruce felt when he lost his parents, and how encompassing it is, she needs revenge the same way bruce did and ra's before him, it blinds her. What's weird with her character is how little she seems to care about the League's philosophy, she seems to be all about revenge, it speaks to that horrible anger you feel after that type of trauma, and how illogical it is, and how badly bruce could have turned out if he wasn't lightly guided towards harnessing that anger right by a slew of father figures (Gordon, Alfred, and ironically Ra's). Her character's mission feels weak to me still, but that weakness can be flipped to show the indiscriminate anger and need for revenge that comes with losing your parents, your innocence. I find it funny, however, when people say the twist means Bane is simply her protector and she was always the one behind the philosophical core of their mission, not only does Bane stand up as her protector without it changing anything, but it's Bane's point of view and how it is grown from his past that is much better laid out then Talia's, I still prefer to see Bane as the man in control, his reasoning for everything he does is just so much richer then Talia's you killed my father revenge. Talia the child fits wonderfully into the themes and narrative, i honestly am still not sold on Talia the adult, but no movie is perfect.

Actually it works on a psychological level in that when an adult child has a falling out with a loved parent (and no doubt Talia did indeed love her father) and then that parent dies before they can reconcile it often leaves a deep feeling of guilt in the surviving child (and vice versa with a parent when a child dies before they reconcile). Ra's rejection of Bane wouldn't have hurt Talia as much if she didn't love her father and want his approval (added to the fact that she no doubt knew Bane wanted Ra's approval as well, both as a member of the League and as Talia's protector). Talia's guilt over the falling out would have added to her drive to avenge his death and see his plan through to the end.

It may sound like psycho-babble to some, but the fact is that our childhoods do indeed influence the rest of our lives.

No that totally makes sense, and works, it's just that Ra's and Joker and Bane have philosophical, grand points of view, reasons for their actions. Talia, though psychologically sounds as a character, is more of just a twisted twisted girl with a deep need for revenge. She's the least symbolic villain in the entire series, even Scarecrow represents and believes in the mind's power over the body, which stays a theme throughout. Talia as a child fits into larger scale philosophy, but the adult is much more straightforward, her general seemed to have a lot more interesting ideas, that's all.

dustbust5 wrote: Talia as a child fits into larger scale philosophy, but the adult is much more straightforward, her general seemed to have a lot more interesting ideas, that's all.

Totally agree with you there on Bane! I HATE how some people called him Talia's puppet. Hardly. Just because he loved and cared for a child and the woman she became doesn't mean he was weak. The only weakness in Bane was, ultimately, his mask. One can only speculate just who and what he would have become had the LoS not excommunicated him.

dustbust5 wrote:No that totally makes sense, and works, it's just that Ra's and Joker and Bane have philosophical, grand points of view, reasons for their actions. Talia, though psychologically sounds as a character, is more of just a twisted twisted girl with a deep need for revenge. She's the least symbolic villain in the entire series, even Scarecrow represents and believes in the mind's power over the body, which stays a theme throughout. Talia as a child fits into larger scale philosophy, but the adult is much more straightforward, her general seemed to have a lot more interesting ideas, that's all.

I think Talia's place in this is to finalize the developed theme of "revenge through anger". Early on Bruce was angered because his parents were taken from him, and he allowed that to get the better of him. He overcame that anger, and he molded himself into an icon that would fight for good - what his parents stood for.

Talia on the other hand had her parents taken from her (she of course blames Bruce for "killing" her father) and she has allowed the anger to do its way with her. Of course, she did not have the same father that Bruce did, she did not have the same parental philosophy and mindset to inspire her to do good in the most appropriate of ways. Although, I am sure she loved her father, and he loved her - they are human after all.

So I think both Talia and Bane parallel Bruce, but Talia is more directly a parallel to the personal anger Bruce had over his parents' death, while Bane is a parallel to Bruce's fear and psychological journey from childhood to an adult and how that molded him into the person he is today, and what he becomes (Batman).

Talia/Bane is exactly what could have become of Bruce had he let his anger/fear get the better of him.

Talia = Bruce's anger

Bane = Bruce's fear

I just realized that both Talia and Bruce are fighting for their respective father's philosophy. She is fighting to bring peace byway of destroying Gotham, and Bruce is fighting to bring peace byway of saving it.

The ultimate moral of this series: BE A PEACEFUL PARENT AND DON'T FEED YOUR KID PSYCHOTIC DOGMA.

The TDKR section needs more threads like this one.

Ancap, nice observations about Talia. What drives her to avenge Ra's is not really a sudden change of heart towards him as a person; she can't overcome it for the fact that it's the death of her father. Ra's death throws her back into the condition of parentlessness she experienced in the pit, and her revenge is just that: the cry of pain and anger of an orphaned child.
What really drives her is the rage Blake talks about when he first visits Bruce.
Blake defines orphans as people unable to move on, who risk letting their pain and loss define their whole life until they become slaves to their own grief. Much like Bruce himself throughout the trilogy, Talia is basically still stuck in her childhood. And interestingly enough, this inability to "grow up" means at the same time a loss of innocence.

Lynn wrote:Blake defines orphans as people unable to move on, who risk letting their pain and loss define their whole life until they become slaves to their own grief.

This part in the movie made me think about poor Lenny, Cobb, Dormer and Angier.