Batmannerism wrote:Here's a thought, I'm interested to hear what other people think about...

Bruce's death wish.

Sounds silly, hear me out then decide.

At the start of the film we see Bruce as a shell of his former self.
Alfred tells him he hasn't moved on, he's just waiting for things to get bad again.
When Bruce first suits up, he suggests Alfred is afraid he'll fail.
Alfred replies, "I'm afraid that you want to" (suggesting Bruce doesn't care about whether he
gets killed or not).

Then, after Bruce's first outing as Batman, Alfred says "maybe you only see one end to your journey"
again, suggests that Bruce has a Death wish.

After his defeat, Bruce's first question for Bane is "Why didn't you just kill me ?" suggesting that's what
he would have preferred. And Bane aknowledges that Bruce has no fear of death....why not ?
Because he actually wants to die.

It's not until this point that he even begins to consider life beyond Batman. When the Doctor
tells him that his lack of fear of death is actually a weakness, that the impulse to live is the strongest
impulse. That plants the seed, that maybe he needs to want to live, just to survive what's to come.

But ! Not until Gotham is safe. The reason he gets himself together and escapes the pit is not to save himself,
it's just that he has to fulfil his obsession of saving Gotham.

Then of course, there's the foreshadowing, just before the final battle begins,
Selina says he's given the people everythign and he says "not yet" so what does he have left to
give, his life.

Anyway, jump ahead to Batman flying the bomb out of the city ( I disagree with those who
said this part was planned, otherwise, why would he have bothered to send Fox to the
reactor, and been alarmed when Talia flooded it).
We get this shot of Batman in the cockpit, just before the explosion. This look comes across his
face. I'm convinced that that's the moment he decides to do what Alfred begged him to do, move
on. That's the moment he makes the choice between death (which doesn't scare him, and would
be easy enough, just die in the explosion) and life (which probably scares him, as he's never really
imagined a life without Batman).

Some folks say he had the whole thing planned, but if you watch the film again check out the
look on BAtman's face.
(now realistically it's probably way too late for him to bail out and get clear of the blast, but
who cares, he's Batman, and plot holes are in a different thread).

I suppose the flip side of this line of thought is the idea of immortality, from Ra's Al Ghul.
About how as a symbol or a legend he can be immortal. We know Bruce fully adopts this
point of view when he's flying home with Alfred "As a symbol I can be everlasting...."
So we know that he isn't worried about his own personal death, so long as he achieves his
goal of saving Gotham. He repeats that "Batman could be anybody" idea to Blake,
that Batman's not a person as such, more of an idea
(for those of you who've seen V for Vendetta, that's the central thrust of the main character
wonder if Nolan borrowed some ideas there).

Anyway, would be interested to hear other people's thoughts about Bruce's death wish, and that
final shot of Batman in the cockpit.

cheers !

Melack wrote:The original poster echoes my thoughts.

I love that close-up of Batman in the cock-pit, it's not the face of a man accepting death, it's the face of a man realizing he don't want to die. Love it.

Batcat wrote:

I personaly think Bruce's mind changed about dying once he was in the pit and started seeing his city burn. I think it only crossed his mind when the doctor told him it was the fear of dying that would get him out of there.

I also think what gave hope to Bruce and made him want to live was the moment where Selina asked him to get away with him, and when she talked to him/kissed him just before he took the bomb. As you said, Bruce was totally alone once Alfred left him, but with Selina he wasn't anymore. She gave him a reason to live again as well as Blake. As Bale said, she re-candeled his flame. I'm not sure if he planned it or not, but he knew about the device giving him the possibility to start a new life. So I'm sure it crossed his mind that he could use it to. Maybe, as you said, the final decision was only made once he was in the Bat

dustbust5 wrote:

Batmannerism wrote:Here's a thought, I'm interested to hear what other people think about...

Bruce's death wish.

Sounds silly, hear me out then decide.

At the start of the film we see Bruce as a shell of his former self.
Alfred tells him he hasn't moved on, he's just waiting for things to get bad again.
When Bruce first suits up, he suggests Alfred is afraid he'll fail.
Alfred replies, "I'm afraid that you want to" (suggesting Bruce doesn't care about whether he
gets killed or not).

Then, after Bruce's first outing as Batman, Alfred says "maybe you only see one end to your journey"
again, suggests that Bruce has a Death wish.

After his defeat, Bruce's first question for Bane is "Why didn't you just kill me ?" suggesting that's what
he would have preferred. And Bane aknowledges that Bruce has no fear of death....why not ?
Because he actually wants to die.

It's not until this point that he even begins to consider life beyond Batman. When the Doctor
tells him that his lack of fear of death is actually a weakness, that the impulse to live is the strongest
impulse. That plants the seed, that maybe he needs to want to live, just to survive what's to come.

But ! Not until Gotham is safe. The reason he gets himself together and escapes the pit is not to save himself,
it's just that he has to fulfil his obsession of saving Gotham.

Then of course, there's the foreshadowing, just before the final battle begins,
Selina says he's given the people everythign and he says "not yet" so what does he have left to
give, his life.

Anyway, jump ahead to Batman flying the bomb out of the city ( I disagree with those who
said this part was planned, otherwise, why would he have bothered to send Fox to the
reactor, and been alarmed when Talia flooded it).
We get this shot of Batman in the cockpit, just before the explosion. This look comes across his
face. I'm convinced that that's the moment he decides to do what Alfred begged him to do, move
on. That's the moment he makes the choice between death (which doesn't scare him, and would
be easy enough, just die in the explosion) and life (which probably scares him, as he's never really
imagined a life without Batman).

Some folks say he had the whole thing planned, but if you watch the film again check out the
look on BAtman's face.
(now realistically it's probably way too late for him to bail out and get clear of the blast, but
who cares, he's Batman, and plot holes are in a different thread).

I suppose the flip side of this line of thought is the idea of immortality, from Ra's Al Ghul.
About how as a symbol or a legend he can be immortal. We know Bruce fully adopts this
point of view when he's flying home with Alfred "As a symbol I can be everlasting...."
So we know that he isn't worried about his own personal death, so long as he achieves his
goal of saving Gotham. He repeats that "Batman could be anybody" idea to Blake,
that Batman's not a person as such, more of an idea
(for those of you who've seen V for Vendetta, that's the central thrust of the main character
wonder if Nolan borrowed some ideas there).

Anyway, would be interested to hear other people's thoughts about Bruce's death wish, and that
final shot of Batman in the cockpit.

cheers !

I honestly think this thread doesn't need spoilers it's so obvious. But, well, FUCKING SPOILERS AHEAD.

I believe Bruce absolutely has a death wish in the beginning. I recently read an article that defined him as an addict, who never recovered when sober, and the beginning of the film is essentially his relapse, only it's not cuz Batman is truly needed, it's cuz he's been craving a relapse, he's long been dead as Bruce and being batman again is his only wish, even if it means dying as Batman, ending bruce's misery. He's reeling from never having separated the two identities truly.

Alfred's actions essentially represent a loved one watching another loved one relapse, and at all costs refusing to enable, even if it means fully cutting himself off.

But Bruce's perspective changes in the pit, and he regains the will to live. That said, Bruce wayne is one with Batman at this point, they can't exist separately. The big scene in the pit is the flashback/dream, it is here that Bruce both regains his fear of failure, and thus fear, while also understanding how to make Batman the equal to Ra's immortality with Bane/Talia. He must pass Batman on. Later, the opposite of Bruce giving everything (dying) to Gotham is defined by Selina as coming away with her, while Alfred long defined the imagery of the moment he'd have officially moved on, to where they don't even need to acknowledge it, or doing so would be the opposite of the idea.

It's a clever duel story in the end, Bruce goes from wanting to die as Batman, which would end Bruce and Batman, and understanding the key to both is his moving on, he must move on as a person to let Batman not die with Bruce, and a next Batman is also the key to Batman's immortality. Ra's immortality is defined by taking many forms despite his literal death, and only the same can make Batman Ra's equal. He must pretend to die so Batman's continuation is immortal, surreal, and in the process fake his death to separate his personal life from Batman. So he goes from having a death wish to wishing to live so much that he'll fake his death to free himself.

This is why the title of this film is fucking brilliant. It refers to Bruce rising above his addiction to live again, the dark knight rising, while also Batman is elevated to immortal and everlasting, the image being Robin literally rising to be the next Dark Knight. The final two images both represent the Dark Knight Rising, which all was born out of rising out of this pit to regain his lifeforce. All, btw, to combat the evil that they tried to bury from rising to destroy gotham, and from the understanding that gotham will always need the dark knight because that evil will always rise again.

It's a completion story to the full, They speak of being immortal and a legend in the first film, and it's here that Ra's proves what that truly means and Bruce/Batman grow to match it, and rise to that level.

This title is almost obnoxiously clever, rising literally flows through every pore of this film, fucking Nolan's lol. But yeah he starts with a death wish very much, but rises above it.