mchekhov wrote:

ComptonTerry wrote:
He is right about several things but the question is, was he wrong about everyone being as evil as him? The outcome of the situation on the boats, the fact that they didn't blow each other up, leads us to believe perhaps his overall outlook was wrong. That's how Bruce see's it.

That's not how I read that scene....the way it played out, made it seem like if it was another day, perhaps they would have blown themselves up

Maybe, but Bruce definitely thinks it's proof that people are not as evil as Joker. Maybe Bruce is the one being fooled. Bruce just doesn't believe people are that evil, but maybe the reality is they didn't blow each other up out of fear, rather than out of kindness.

In Gotham there are the criminals and scum and the average citizen and the people who stand up. The scum and criminals are the reason for Gothams demise. Batman believes that the citizens need to be saved from the evil doers because there is some good left in the city.

mchekhov wrote:

ComptonTerry wrote:
He is right about several things but the question is, was he wrong about everyone being as evil as him? The outcome of the situation on the boats, the fact that they didn't blow each other up, leads us to believe perhaps his overall outlook was wrong. That's how Bruce see's it.

That's not how I read that scene....the way it played out, made it seem like if it was another day, perhaps they would have blown themselves up


I think that's what made the joker so captivating and mesmerizing..because despite the ugliness of his actions, deep down inside everybody in the audience recognized the truth in what he was saying...he tapped into our subconscious minds and showed us something we already knew but try to forget everyday..we see it in the world around us

this is, why i said the joker in TDK is way different than the joker in the comics, because in the comics he does not do this for the reader

Making the claim that people are hypocritical and violent despite cultural niceties is pretty broad and pretty well-worn, as far as insights go. Joker appealed to people's ugliest qualities and used that to manipulate them, but that doesn't mean he's not crazy. Ever heard of a guy named Charles Manson?

I think Nolan's Joker is a great distillation of the comic Joker in broad strokes. He has an overarching ideology guiding him, because a movie needs a plot, but it's not much deeper than "chaos". Comic Joker orchestrates equally complex stunts in the comics and TV series all the time, and more than once it's been to make some sort of vague philosophical point.

For the love of Nolan, get this thread back on track mods.

Red Pyramid wrote:

mchekhov wrote:

That's not how I read that scene....the way it played out, made it seem like if it was another day, perhaps they would have blown themselves up


I think that's what made the joker so captivating and mesmerizing..because despite the ugliness of his actions, deep down inside everybody in the audience recognized the truth in what he was saying...he tapped into our subconscious minds and showed us something we already knew but try to forget everyday..we see it in the world around us

this is, why i said the joker in TDK is way different than the joker in the comics, because in the comics he does not do this for the reader

Making the claim that people are hypocritical and violent despite cultural niceties is pretty broad and pretty well-worn, as far as insights go. Joker appealed to people's ugliest qualities and used that to manipulate them, but that doesn't mean he's not crazy. Ever heard of a guy named Charles Manson?

I think Nolan's Joker is a great distillation of the comic Joker in broad strokes. He has an overarching ideology guiding him, because a movie needs a plot, but it's not much deeper than "chaos". Comic Joker orchestrates equally complex stunts in the comics and TV series all the time, and more than once it's been to make some sort of vague philosophical point.

"Some men just want t watch the world burn."

ComptonTerry wrote:

mchekhov wrote:

That's not how I read that scene....the way it played out, made it seem like if it was another day, perhaps they would have blown themselves up

Maybe, but Bruce definitely thinks it's proof that people are not as evil as Joker. Maybe Bruce is the one being fooled. Bruce just doesn't believe people are that evil, but maybe the reality is they didn't blow each other up out of fear, rather than out of kindness.

follow the dialogue of that scene....Bruce only thinks he won up until he realizes what the Joker did...after that he realizes he lost and that Gotham will collapse because the Joker is right

"this city just showed you that its full of people ready to believe in good"
"until their spirit breaks completely...until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent...and all the things he's done."

from that point on, you sense the realization Bruce is going through...hence the sacrifice he makes at the end.....he pins the sins of Gotham on himself with the cover up of Dent's crimes


so...the Joker was right


once again, this character is so vastly different from the character in the comics

mchekhov wrote:

ComptonTerry wrote:
Maybe, but Bruce definitely thinks it's proof that people are not as evil as Joker. Maybe Bruce is the one being fooled. Bruce just doesn't believe people are that evil, but maybe the reality is they didn't blow each other up out of fear, rather than out of kindness.

follow the dialogue of that scene....Bruce only thinks he won up until he realizes what the Joker did...after that he realizes he lost and that Gotham will collapse because the Joker is right

"this city just showed you that its full of people ready to believe in good"
"until their spirit breaks completely...until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent...and all the things he's done."

from that point on, you sense the realization Bruce is going through...hence the sacrifice he makes at the end.....he pins the sins of Gotham on himself with the cover up of Dent's crimes


so...the Joker was right


once again, this character is so vastly different from the character in the comics

Different. But similar enough to be recognizable and true to the character. /argument.

Hell, even the fact that the Joker has motivations (regardless of the fact that they make sense) derives from many versions that are in the comics.

Bacon wrote:Hell, even the fact that the Joker has motivations (regardless of the fact that they make sense) derives from many versions that are in the comics.

BACK ON TOPIC.


NOW.

We NEED a gif of Hardy's laugh at 3:16.