Christopher Nolan Fans
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Deeper and more in-depth technical discussion of the films of Christopher Nolan.

Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post Threshold June 2, 2012, 6:08 am

While watching Gladiator I immediately assumed that the morals and themes of Marcus Aurelius that were being taught to Maximus and Commodus and subsequently interpreted differently were a metaphor for how Jesus taught his disciples and they in turn to the churchs and yet his teachings can be misinterpreted.

Then I realized I might be taking it a bit too far for a fairly simple movie, but that was what I got reminded of.
I brought this up with a few of my film associates they replied "any film can be read religiously"

So my questions for you guys are...

How can you tell what themes the artist is trying to bring across in his art?
Where do the metaphors start and end?
Can we really read everything religiously and how do we know that is what the artist wanted?
And if so,

Can we just bullshit our way to making even Michael bay films seem existential and thought-provoking through metaphors?

Where lies the true metaphor?


The Tree of Life is a definite example.
Its obvious themes range from life, family, morals etc, but without blatantly shoving it in our face; in fact, its quite mysterious and vague about what is the true theme its trying to evoke, making it thought-provoking for everyone and therefore, the morals are interchangeable for any opinion.

So, what do you think?
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post Liron June 2, 2012, 6:57 am

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, since personally I was taught to believe it doesn't matter if the artist tried to put in those themes or if it's just the audience or the academic person's way of interpreting/analysing it, as long as you include facts.

Let me start by saying, when I wrote the essay about Memento, it became VERY clear to me the film is an analogy to the postmodern world. Living on bits/segments of information. Every essay or book I read about Memento supported that theory. Chuck Palahniuk (author) even wrote a short parody about Memento, making the segments of information receipts of shopping instead of tattoos and polaroid. A clever way of saying this is the postmodern world, the capitalistic world.
Personally, I don't know if Jonah or Chris thought and looked about it this way when writing. But a good film is ambiguous enough for it. It doesn't throw the entire information in your face. It doesn't tell you "ok, right now we'll do this and this and this" like a sort of, silly monologue from a villain right before he thinks he's going to kill the hero.. it shows you things. When you see information rather than being fed it with a spoon, you can translate this information differently. You have more space for it, to put in your own thoughts and ideas. A good film allows you to do this.

For the record, a friend of mine who knows nothing about film wrote her essay on Armageddon. While I found three books and countless essays on Memento to help me, and went very deep into the themes of the film, layer after layer, we didn't find a single essay or book written about Armageddon (I helped her search for it). Her final work was very shallow and on the surface. Even if you try really hard and say 'the meteor in the film is an analogy for the corrupt government' :lol: or something idiotic like that, the scenes are too clear, too obvious, too in-your-face for you to be able to say anything different. I honestly can't find or think of a way to translate that film any differently than what you see on screen. It's too obvious.

Now back to your initial question, whether the visionaries behind the good films actually think of those themes in advance. A film like Tree of Life tries extremely hard (imo, too much) to be symbolic. If Armageddon tries hard to escape symbolism and ambiguity, Tree of Life tries all it can to say "look at me, I have so much under the surface" that the surface itself is shallow and empty (and btw, I did enjoy the film, I think Malick is a genius, albeit pretentious). I do think Nolan, as someone who studied English literature and is clearly aware of symbolism as you can see from names he uses in his films alone, tries to say so much more (almost all names from Inception, Miranda in TDKR..) than what is actually on the surface. A smart filmmaker would have knowledge beyond filmmaking and use it in his films. In symbolism, in dialogue, in everything, to make you think. I have no doubt many of the themes in Nolan's films were put there on purpose. Again, not everything, and in a way it doesn't matter at all, as I said in the above paragraph. Once you put your heart into symbolism and ambiguity, there would be, by definite, countless other ways to analyse your film, ways maybe you didn't even think about. I dunno if Memento was meant to be an analogy of the postmodern world, I believe so because the Nolan brothers are extremely smart and this one theme was very clear and not that deep under surface (plus they've mentioned it in the same sentence as The Matrix before, one film with a similar theme), but I do think that the symbolism and ambiguity they did use on purpose is the cause of why the film can be interpreted in this manner, and so many others.

Hope that makes sense :P
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post Threshold June 2, 2012, 9:08 pm

lalyil wrote:I think you're looking at it the wrong way, since personally I was taught to believe it doesn't matter if the artist tried to put in those themes or if it's just the audience or the academic person's way of interpreting/analysing it, as long as you include facts.


:clap:
Yeah. I think that's the answer. It's then just a matter of trying to find the symbolism...

lalyil wrote:For the record, a friend of mine who knows nothing about film wrote her essay on Armageddon. While I found three books and countless essays on Memento to help me, and went very deep into the themes of the film, layer after layer, we didn't find a single essay or book written about Armageddon (I helped her search for it).

Haha, she obviously chose the wrong Michael Bay movie. We all know Transformers 3 is perfect for symbolism. :-D

lalyil wrote:Now back to your initial question, whether the visionaries behind the good films actually think of those themes in advance. A film like Tree of Life tries extremely hard (imo, too much) to be symbolic. If Armageddon tries hard to escape symbolism and ambiguity, Tree of Life tries all it can to say "look at me, I have so much under the surface" that the surface itself is shallow and empty (and btw, I did enjoy the film, I think Malick is a genius, albeit pretentious).

Yes I did think Tree of Life tried a little too much, but I got something out of it at least.
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post Liron June 3, 2012, 4:07 am

Threshold wrote: :clap:
Yeah. I think that's the answer. It's then just a matter of trying to find the symbolism...


Indeed it is, but reading analysis made by others on any movie can help kick-start it.


Threshold wrote:Yes I did think Tree of Life tried a little too much, but I got something out of it at least.


The whole Job/Bible thing they put quite on the surface and easy to understand, then they just started putting layers and layers of symbolism.. I love it when there's a Bible or religious or Mythological theme inside because one could just interpret that one thing in so many ways, and a name alone opens the road to so many background themes and stories. ToL was interesting since I found the story on the surface really lacking, but way could say, too much under the surface. It's the kind of film that is nearly impossible to enjoy UNLESS you analyse it. But I suppose there's always something exciting in film when you discover some hidden symbolism or theme yourself heh
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post NoMoreDeadCops June 29, 2012, 8:48 pm

The credits.
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Where does the artist's vision end and the audience's start?

Post darthnazgul July 1, 2012, 7:13 pm

I have an old saying; "There's a difference between a mirror and a portrait."

This sort of thing has been around for ages, Tolkien got fed up with all the fan mail asking if this was a metaphor for that or was this his meaning or was this an attack on whatever. The thing is that he didn't use allegories, his stories simply had applicability. To (most likely heavily) paraphrase Shakespeare, "drama is to hold a mirror up to nature". We tend to see what is either an extension of ourselves or our own visions, each differing from each other.

As a writer, I notice this often. People would tell me that they interpret a character this way, which either is not what I intended or even goes beyond my intentions to depths that I hadn't realised. It's not really a bad thing, so long as you know what you're seeing is a mirror and not a portrait.

The way I view Inception is quite personal. The way it deals with dreams and reality, the main character's psyche and loss of a loved one, it's all stuff I can relate to or find hidden meanings in, but not everyone will.
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