I spotted what I initially thought were continuity errors, lots of them, but I now think these are deliberate discontinuities.
The charges planted on the snow level made me think, why not just dream up the whole level with the charges already in place? But that obviously wouldn't work!
Vader182 wrote:The only one I can't completely explain away is that they were planting charges on the snow level when they didn't technically have an explained reason to at that point in time.
To create the kick. the sensation of falling or dying or whatever. The problem is...
1. When Yusuf makes that powerful mixture he says and shows that even in the deepest dreams you will wake up at the smallest sense of falling or rolling or whatever else implies the sudden movement of the body. But then again when they roll over in the car or when the car is falling... nobody wakes up...
2. There's another logic issue with the 0 gravity sequence. In the first dream Yusuf drives the car. Once the car rolls over... The shift of gravity happens and is felt entirely in the 2nd dream. The car goes back on it's way and after the chase Yusuf jumps with the car from the bridge. At that moment we have 0 gravity because the bodies inside the car are actually floating... Agree with that. In the 2nd dream we have 0 gravity also because of the sense of falling and floating from the 1st dream. Problem is... The bodies in the 2nd dream are also floating, moving, falling etc. They are in the exact same state as they are in the 1st dream. Question is... why in the 3rd dream there is no 0-gravity since in the 2nd dream bodies react the same as they do in the 1st dream?... Isn't there a logic chain that is broken?...
3. Nolan never shows what actually happens in the 3rd dream when the gravity changes into no-gravity in the 2nd dream. He just leaves you after a nice and astonishing fight in the hallway watching some dudes over a snowy mountain. Well, they were already there before the gravity changed in the 2nd dream. So what happened with them in that period of time?...
1.) The deeper they go into the sleep, the fiercer the kick has to be, so rolling around isn't as 'pure' a sense of falling/balance as going off a bridge, but more of a thrashing around. But also, they can withstand kicks. This is proven when he drives off the bridge and they say they missed the kick.
2.) It only affects the dream immediately below it as the senses of the person dreaming are directly altered, just like when Cobb was pushed into the tub in the opening scene, the water came bursting in. Yes, they're experiencing 'zero gravity' but I wouldn't say that would affect their senses quite the same way a level down, especially directly. The only apparent contradiction is the attempted kick driving off the bridge causing the avalanche, but that's explained merely by saying the severity of driving off and the nature of it being a kick vibrated through, so its not as clean cut as we'd maybe like, but I'll buy it.
3.) This was explained up there ^
Also, in terms of the charges, my explanation is that they kicked themselves up by them, just a Ariadne jumps. She jumps and the 'drop' there kicked her up, along with Fischer. Makes sense to me.
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Vader182 wrote:
1.) The deeper they go into the sleep, the fiercer the kick has to be, so rolling around isn't as 'pure' a sense of falling/balance as going off a bridge, but more of a thrashing around. But also, they can withstand kicks. This is proven when he drives off the bridge and they say they missed the kick.
Remember. Yusuf showed how in the deepest dream you wake up by pushing Arthur EASILY over the chair. He even mentions that "at the slightest sense of falling or rolling you will wake up"... so... in a normal and logical world all should have waken up in the 1st dream when the van was falling.
Vader182 wrote:
2.) It only affects the dream immediately below it as the senses of the person dreaming are directly altered, just like when Cobb was pushed into the tub in the opening scene, the water came bursting in. Yes, they're experiencing 'zero gravity' but I wouldn't say that would affect their senses quite the same way a level down, especially directly. The only apparent contradiction is the attempted kick driving off the bridge causing the avalanche, but that's explained merely by saying the severity of driving off and the nature of it being a kick vibrated through, so its not as clean cut as we'd maybe like, but I'll buy it.
That's what I said. It only affects the dream immediately below. Take a look at this.
1st dream --> car jumps off the bridge --> bodies are floating --> 2nd dream --> 0 gravity because of the bodies floating in the 1st dream --> bodies floating also in the 2nd dream --> 0 gravity --> 3rd dream --> nothing happens even if the bodies react the same in the 2nd dream (1lvl upper) as they react in the 1st dream (2lvls upper).
If the bodies were sitting in their beds comfortably I could understand why nothing happened to them in the 3rd dream because physically nothing happened to them but since they all float just like they do in the 1st dream... why nothing happens in the 3rd?...
Vader182 wrote:
3.) This was explained up there ^
Nope. They didn't showed because either it was in fact a 0 gravity moment in the third dream but that would've required a lot of CGI or Nolan missed that and knew he has to fill that space with something so he did the JGL fight which made the audience be like and then jumped in the 3rd dream like nothing happened. This way nobody would question the logic chain being broken because their attention is already entirely "wasted" on the JGL shot.
Vader182 wrote:
1.) The deeper they go into the sleep, the fiercer the kick has to be, so rolling around isn't as 'pure' a sense of falling/balance as going off a bridge, but more of a thrashing around. But also, they can withstand kicks. This is proven when he drives off the bridge and they say they missed the kick.
Remember. Yusuf showed how in the deepest dream you wake up by pushing Arthur EASILY over the chair. He even mentions that "at the slightest sense of falling or rolling you will wake up"... so... in a normal and logical world all should have waken up in the 1st dream when the van was falling.
Vader182 wrote:
2.) It only affects the dream immediately below it as the senses of the person dreaming are directly altered, just like when Cobb was pushed into the tub in the opening scene, the water came bursting in. Yes, they're experiencing 'zero gravity' but I wouldn't say that would affect their senses quite the same way a level down, especially directly. The only apparent contradiction is the attempted kick driving off the bridge causing the avalanche, but that's explained merely by saying the severity of driving off and the nature of it being a kick vibrated through, so its not as clean cut as we'd maybe like, but I'll buy it.
That's what I said. It only affects the dream immediately below. Take a look at this.
1st dream --> car jumps off the bridge --> bodies are floating --> 2nd dream --> 0 gravity because of the bodies floating in the 1st dream --> bodies floating also in the 2nd dream --> 0 gravity --> 3rd dream --> nothing happens even if the bodies react the same in the 2nd dream (1lvl upper) as they react in the 1st dream (2lvls upper).
If the bodies were sitting in their beds comfortably I could understand why nothing happened to them in the 3rd dream because physically nothing happened to them but since they all float just like they do in the 1st dream... why nothing happens in the 3rd?...
Vader182 wrote:
3.) This was explained up there ^
Nope. They didn't showed because either it was in fact a 0 gravity moment in the third dream but that would've required a lot of CGI or Nolan missed that and knew he has to fill that space with something so he did the JGL fight which made the audience be like and then jumped in the 3rd dream like nothing happened. This way nobody would question the logic chain being broken because their attention is already entirely "wasted" on the JGL shot.
1.) But we know that they can withstand kicks by will shown several times throughout the film because, well, they DID withstand the kick when he drove off and they said that, and they also mention they had two kicks, the second being when the van hits the water, so they withstood the first one, but also, keep in mind, they're buckled down into their chairs, they'd experience thrashing about not really 'falling'.
2.) You get hit with the immediate stimulus around you, so because of the mechanics of the way this works, something causing something else to happen a level down, wouldn't seep into the next level down however much it affects the second level. But also, what I'm saying is that floating is a much subtler sensory stimulus than falling, getting splashed with water, and so on. I always took the zero g being caused by a profound sense of falling causing a sensation of zero gravity, not zero gravity itself.
3.) My explanation for 2 explains why the zero g wouldn't have happened on the third level, I honestly don't see how your questions for 2 and 3 are any different.
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Vader182 wrote:also, keep in mind, they're buckled down into their chairs, they'd experience thrashing about not really 'falling'.
Have you ever experienced such a thing? I did. I had both the senses of falling and rolling... (exactly the senses Yusuf says you need to have in order to wake up no matter what you do because the sedative is... "specially designed")
Vader182 wrote:2.) You get hit with the immediate stimulus around you, so because of the mechanics of the way this works, something causing something else to happen a level down, wouldn't seep into the next level down however much it affects the second level.
I'm not saying something that's caused from the 1st level of the dream must be felt in the 3rd level. I'm talking about the things that happen in the 2nd dream not influencing the 3rd dream world. In the 2nd dream they float, they get pushed, they get the sense of falling (high pressure) when Arthur gives the second kick in the elevator and so on. Nothing, nothing from these physical changes affect or influence the 3rd world which is without logic to me.
Not to mention you have the avalanche as a DIRECT RESULT of the car jumping of the bridge in the first dream... So here, the first dream influences the third dream world but in my case it doesn't?...
From what I remember, Yusuf doesn't say the slightest disturbance will wake the dreamer, he says the slightest disturbance will cause dreams to collapse.
As for weightlessness, the first level they are in free-fall, which is apparent weightlessness. This transfers down to level 2 into actual weightlessness. This doesn't have an effect on level 3. This is logical. There is a difference between how the body feels apparent weightlessness and actual weightlessness when you are not surrounded by a vacuum. So no, they are not in the exact same state in dreams 1 and 2. They are in different states, which causes different reactions in the dream below.
As for the car flipping, yes, this should have had an impact on the level 3 dream. But this is an intentional "mistake", because it would have been nearly impossible to film the snow fortress with the mountain spinning.
steveportee wrote:From what I remember, Yusuf doesn't say the slightest disturbance will wake the dreamer, he says the slightest disturbance will cause dreams to collapse.
As for weightlessness, the first level they are in free-fall, which is apparent weightlessness. This transfers down to level 2 into actual weightlessness. This doesn't have an effect on level 3. This is logical. There is a difference between how the body feels apparent weightlessness and actual weightlessness when you are not surrounded by a vacuum. So no, they are not in the exact same state in dreams 1 and 2. They are in different states, which causes different reactions in the dream below.
As for the car flipping, yes, this should have had an impact on the level 3 dream. But this is an intentional "mistake", because it would have been nearly impossible to film the snow fortress with the mountain spinning.
Vader182 wrote:also, keep in mind, they're buckled down into their chairs, they'd experience thrashing about not really 'falling'.
Have you ever experienced such a thing? I did. I had both the senses of falling and rolling... (exactly the senses Yusuf says you need to have in order to wake up no matter what you do because the sedative is... "specially designed")
Vader182 wrote:2.) You get hit with the immediate stimulus around you, so because of the mechanics of the way this works, something causing something else to happen a level down, wouldn't seep into the next level down however much it affects the second level.
I'm not saying something that's caused from the 1st level of the dream must be felt in the 3rd level. I'm talking about the things that happen in the 2nd dream not influencing the 3rd dream world. In the 2nd dream they float, they get pushed, they get the sense of falling (high pressure) when Arthur gives the second kick in the elevator and so on. Nothing, nothing from these physical changes affect or influence the 3rd world which is without logic to me.
Not to mention you have the avalanche as a DIRECT RESULT of the car jumping of the bridge in the first dream... So here, the first dream influences the third dream world but in my case it doesn't?...
I explained everything you brought up in my posts above, I don't really know what else to say other than it seems you just skimmed through them. I also explained what was said (not as directly) as what the post below me said, but ah well.
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steveportee wrote:From what I remember, Yusuf doesn't say the slightest disturbance will wake the dreamer, he says the slightest disturbance will cause dreams to collapse.
I think I will watch that scene again soon to see if he really said that because that would change things but not too much though because the dream doesn't actually collapse or start to collapse when the van spins or jumps of the bridge.
steveportee wrote:As for weightlessness, the first level they are in free-fall, which is apparent weightlessness. This transfers down to level 2 into actual weightlessness. This doesn't have an effect on level 3. This is logical. There is a difference between how the body feels apparent weightlessness and actual weightlessness when you are not surrounded by a vacuum. So no, they are not in the exact same state in dreams 1 and 2. They are in different states, which causes different reactions in the dream below.
Best explanation but still... there is something wrong with the 3rd dream and the time periods I'm talking about... There's something there missing...
steveportee wrote:As for the car flipping, yes, this should have had an impact on the level 3 dream. But this is an intentional "mistake", because it would have been nearly impossible to film the snow fortress with the mountain spinning.
That's what I'm talking. I thought Nolan knew about this missing link in the visual story at one point but because it's almost impossible to show that...he skipped it. So, intentional or not... it is a "mistake".
Steve said what I was trying to but it appears far better, haha.
Yeah, the only mistake is that during the van tumbling sequence, the bodies would've been flying all over the room, causing them to smack into everything.
and then jumped in the 3rd dream like nothing happened. This way nobody would question the logic chain being broken because their attention is already entirely "wasted" on the JGL shot.
