tykjen wrote:
The architect does not have to join in on the dream. Ariadne was just supposed to design the dreams and teach them to the dreamers.
Yeah, but she went in with them because she was the only one who understood Cobbs problems.
tykjen wrote:
Fischer was the subject all along during the mission. If he suddenly became the dreamer, the limbo as Cobb knew it would seize to exist.
No, Limbo is created by the people who are there(or has been there before) its a mutual conscious of the dreamers. Nothing would seize to exist.
tykjen wrote:
Ariadne and Cobb went down to limbo through the machine. Limbo was not just another dreamlevel, it was a special place where people could build [together]. He knew where to go because "Mal" was a part of his own mind, and the fact that Cobb was the only one in the team who had been building down there before.
Well, if you'd like to you would be able to build in any of the others layers as well, that's pretty much what the whole architect thing is about. And no it was not just another dreamlevel, because it is uncontrolled, no dreamer, no subject, no architect, nothing. Just raw sub-conscious of everybody.
But the point I'm trying to prove is that if someone is in Limbo, then Limbo would be that persons dream/reality, and if other people used that individual as the dreamer, then they would appear in the limbo also. Where else would they appear?
And my point is, I guess, is that nobody is the dreamer down in limbo. They are all dreamers. But those that end up there by dying, like Saito, wakes up to a new reality. What bothers me a bit is that Fischer did not. He just seemed a bit foggy. And he was taken hostage by a projection. Fischer seemed also to die instantly in level 3. But he did also not seem to be really awake down there when they found him.
rorykerrc wrote:I put to you this question. If Cobb and Mal were in limbo because they kept going deeper and deeper, how is this possible, if the dreamer cannot go into another dream?
Is that ever established in the film, that a dreamer can't go into another dream? Or is that just a "buddy system" safety net, to always leave one person behind to activate the kick? Just a thought.
rorykerrc wrote:I put to you this question. If Cobb and Mal were in limbo because they kept going deeper and deeper, how is this possible, if the dreamer cannot go into another dream?
Is that ever established in the film, that a dreamer can't go into another dream? Or is that just a "buddy system" safety net, to always leave one person behind to activate the kick? Just a thought.
That doesn't seem contradicted by anything said or shown in the movie. And Nolan depicted a precedent for shared dreams-within-dreams without anyone left behind, with the dialogue from Cobb about how he and Mal had gotten into Limbo in the first place:
We were working together. We were exploring the concept of a dream within a dream.
Back to another part of this thread: I'm interested in the fact that someone (Z. Cobb) pointed out the fact that Cobb and Saito interact (in Saito's palace in Limbo) even AFTER the PASIV device leads have been removed (to keep Fischer from seeing them). No one ever offered an explanation of how this could be so.
Sure, Nolan establishes earlier in the movie that a dreamer goes on dreaming even after the leads have been disconnected (as with Saito on the train). But how could two unconnected dreamers hold a conversation with each other?
Ponsonby wrote:
Back to another part of this thread: I'm interested in the fact that someone (Z. Cobb) pointed out the fact that Cobb and Saito interact (in Saito's palace in Limbo) even AFTER the PASIV device leads have been removed (to keep Fischer from seeing them). No one ever offered an explanation of how this could be so.
Sure, Nolan establishes earlier in the movie that a dreamer goes on dreaming even after the leads have been disconnected (as with Saito on the train). But how could two unconnected dreamers hold a conversation with each other?
Hmmm, good question.
-In the inception job, Saito and Fischer were dropped to Limbo - unconstructed and unlimited dreamspace - involuntarily. Now my theory about Limbo is that anyone can end up there, if you happen to be involved in a botched extraction job. However, since dreamshare is illegal and rare in this universe, the chances of meeting other dreamers in limbo was microscopic. So Cobb, literally had to search throughout Limbo-land to find Saito, who constructed his own space and grew old.
-They can comunicate with each other because according to my theory, Limbo is a vacumm for all dreamers, whether they dream-share once or never before. Another thing about Limbo is that once you're there, sedatives don't really matter anymore because it's so deep and you can only eject yourself from Limbo by killing yourself.
-You should also realise that there was always the risk that Cobb would not find Saito in time, and then assumingly they would be lost to Limbo and never wake up after the sedative wears off. That's why errrrbody is relieved to see Cobb and Saito wake up eventually on the plane.
Ugh, I hope this made sense. I personally think my theory for Limbo is solid, considering I derived it from the film yo.
Ponsonby wrote:
... But how could two unconnected dreamers hold a conversation with each other?
Hmmm, good question.
-In the inception job, Saito and Fischer were dropped to Limbo - unconstructed and unlimited dreamspace - involuntarily. Now my theory about Limbo is that anyone can end up there, if you happen to be involved in a botched extraction job. However, since dreamshare is illegal and rare in this universe, the chances of meeting other dreamers in limbo was microscopic. So Cobb, literally had to search throughout Limbo-land to find Saito, who constructed his own space and grew old.
-They can comunicate with each other because according to my theory, Limbo is a vacumm for all dreamers, whether they dream-share once or never before. ...
It's an interesting theory. But of course it introduces something brand new to the movie: the supernatural (and/or mysticism).
Everything else shown in the movie was explained as being an advance in science. People were enabled to share dreams--to interact inside a single dream--only because they were connected to a device.
If we posit that Nolan intended dream-sharing to be possible without any device----through some sort of mystical psychic connection shared by people who are deep-enough in a dream to be "in limbo"----then that is something new. It's not established through dialogue, or through any other means that I can see.
I'm certainly not saying it's impossible that Nolan intended this (a psychic/mystical/supernatural element). But we don't see such a thing in any of his other movies. He seems to be a fairly empiricism-grounded thinker, from the evidence of his screenplays, anyway.
Even with the most outlandish of plot developments (I'm looking at you, The Prestige), Nolan seems to go for the 'can be explained by science even if not the science of our present-day' explanation. He's not one for hand-waving away unusual phenomena with any There's An Unknowable Force, Beyond Human Ken-style arguments.
