Ledge scene is a dream.

This 2010 contemporary sci-fi actioner follows a subconscious security team around the globe and into the intimate and infinite world of dreams.
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Location: Insomnia, Norway
dustbust5 wrote:exactly parallel rooms in exactly parallel buildings, and the rooms each and every attribute being the same, every last piece of furniture, the flower paining by the door, the sign hanging on the door.
Did we get to see that much of Mal's room? Please give some pictures proving this.
dustbust5 wrote: For the record, after the suicide, she's now labeled as someone who was sick, even if the doctors previously didn't believe Cobb about her madness.
Mal had herself declared sane by 3 different psychiatrists before her suicide. And Cobb certainly never told Mal that he found her secret place where he planted the idea which enabled her to break free from Limbo, but she received a radical notion that did not define her, but destroyed her and led to her suicide in reality. This feeling of guilt is what haunts Cobb whenever he Dreamshared.
dustbust5 wrote: Later when Cobb breaks a flute everyone stairs at him as if he's become the subject suddenly and thus the projections are suddenly alert.
Cobb was sharing the dream, and the projections would not seek out the subject. The subject is the one populating the Dreamshare levels.
dustbust5 wrote:And voila, as a result, mal is physically manifested in the next scene and they interact from here on out. Remember the line "As we go deeper into Fischer, we're going into you too" This is a double Inception, the other on Cobb to get Cobb home.
Physically manifested as who?

-That is all I had time for.

Posts: 179
Joined: January 2011
tykjen wrote:
dustbust5 wrote:exactly parallel rooms in exactly parallel buildings, and the rooms each and every attribute being the same, every last piece of furniture, the flower paining by the door, the sign hanging on the door.
Did we get to see that much of Mal's room? Please give some pictures proving this.

I can't take stills at the moment but when you look close you can see the same picture of a flower hanigng next to each door and the same exact little sign hanging off the doorbell.
dustbust5 wrote: For the record, after the suicide, she's now labeled as someone who was sick, even if the doctors previously didn't believe Cobb about her madness.
Mal had herself declared sane by 3 different psychiatrists before her suicide. And Cobb certainly never told Mal that he found her secret place where he planted the idea which enabled her to break free from Limbo, but she received a radical notion that did not define her, but destroyed her and led to her suicide in reality. This feeling of guilt is what haunts Cobb whenever he Dreamshared.

Yes I understand that. And he should feel the guilt cuz he ruined her ability to recognize reality, but he didn't kill her. They were dreaming but due to his inception, she's liost because she misinterprets her own totem. She ceases to believe in it and focuses on Dom, who had told her they are each others emotional totem with the riddle. Hence:

"face it, you don't believe in one reality anymore, so choose. Choose to be here with me"

But what I'm saying is the declarations of sanity and well being when alive would be entirely undermined by HER SUICIDE. that is a tell tale sign someone was dysfunctional. Cobb would not be blamed for this murder because i'd be physically impossible for his side to have pushed her off, he'd have no fingerprints or anything. And Mal's general point og view would be undermined.
dustbust5 wrote: Later when Cobb breaks a flute everyone stairs at him as if he's become the subject suddenly and thus the projections are suddenly alert.
Cobb was sharing the dream, and the projections would not seek out the subject. The subject is the one populating the Dreamshare levels.


You're right I miss typed that. That level is supposed to be Arthur's dream and Fischer as the subject. When he steps on the flute, he becomes the dreamer, which is why the projections stair at him, he's been telling Fischer that someone is fucking with his head but, when he starts reaming, the projections get suspicios of him.

Notice how throughout the film when upper level movement is causing graviational shift they cut to the dreamer asleep moving. But take Arthur's halway scene, towards the end of the twisting cobb is shown as the dreamer reference for the twisting. Cuz he's dreaming also.
dustbust5 wrote:And voila, as a result, mal is physically manifested in the next scene and they interact from here on out. Remember the line "As we go deeper into Fischer, we're going into you too" This is a double Inception, the other on Cobb to get Cobb home.
Physically manifested as who?

As Mal. She Sneaks through the vent and shoots Fischer. I should have said level, not scene.

-That is all I had time for.

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Joined: May 2011
Location: Insomnia, Norway
dustbust5 wrote:"face it, you don't believe in one reality anymore, so choose. Choose to be here with me"
But Mal did not say that. Mal is dead right? The Mal inside the dreamlevels is Cobb's projection of her. Everything she says and does, is manufactured and projected by Cobb's own guilt and regretful subconscious, trying to keep him dreaming and choose to live together with a projection that's only an evil shade of his real lovely wife. With Ariadne's pressure he confessed to himself and finally acknowledged the truth about him being indirectly involved in his wife's suicide. If Cobb was Incepted, I would say it was a side-mission created by Miles and Ariadne. And Cobb's projection of Mal which he cant control, could have told Saito not just "everything" regarding the extraction mission, but perhaps also about the inception that led to the suicide. Saito woke up quite confident on the train remember? Almost as he had gained the knowledge that Inception was possible..

But still, I believe the end does not matter because Cobb does not care about reality checking the top. He ignores it and embraces his kids. And the audience that is lost and off the wall with their interpretations should embrace the ending too and ignore the top.

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Joined: October 2011
dustbust5 wrote: It's a dream, the situation simply doesn't exist, starting with hotels that allow easy suicide of falling, exactly parallel rooms in exactly parallel buildings, and the rooms each and every attribute being the same, every last piece of furniture, the flower paining by the door, the sign hanging on the door. I'm sorry but people thinking parallel rooms having absolutely exact same everything including minute details is a coincidence or oversight is just moronic, in a film this meticulous they would not do such an obvious choice of a production design out of laziness.
Cobb tried to keep his memory alive through dreams.
The situation cannot be dismissed simply because he dreamt about it. In fact, more often than not dreams find roots in real experiences.

dustbust5 wrote: Except that same room is trashed on Cobb's side, among other things. You're telling me she went over there to trash the place, leave the top as a cryptic message that, if anything, miscommunicates because she leaves it down for reality and the very act of leaving it for him would mean that it's his to tell reality with now, a bizarre gesture for someone who is about to try and convicnce someone that they have no ability to tell reality and need to take a leap of faith no matter what anything says. And again, it's down, knowing what it means, she'd be going out her way to tell Cob the opposite thing that she wants him to believe.
A dream can be created through real tragic, a tragic can be distorted through a dream.

tykjen wrote:
dustbust5 wrote: For the record, after the suicide, she's now labeled as someone who was sick, even if the doctors previously didn't believe Cobb about her madness.
Mal had herself declared sane by 3 different psychiatrists before her suicide. And Cobb certainly never told Mal that he found her secret place where he planted the idea which enabled her to break free from Limbo, but she received a radical notion that did not define her, but destroyed her and led to her suicide in reality. This feeling of guilt is what haunts Cobb whenever he Dreamshared.
dustbust5 wrote: The top appears in response to him stepping on the flute, an action that happens 3 times, once as a recreation of this scene, once here, and once in the hotel lobby. Each time it creates a break in Cobb's perception and ability to tell what's going on. Here he gets it as he's going to lose Mal as his totem, he gets Mal's totem magically seemingly Because as he steps into Mal's death scene, she will no longer represent reality for him but cuz Cobb knows about his own Inception and that it corrupted Mal's undetstanding, her believing it was spinning (them dreaming) means to Cob it's dropped. The loss of Mal because of different readings of reality immediately makes Mal's totem Cobb's because he believes she's lost and so reality can be told by the top being opposite of Mal's perception. That's the meaning of this moment.
I don't think it really matters whether this perticular scene is reality or not, because it isn't reality. It's a memory. And one thing Memento taught me: sometimes, memory isn't anymore reliable than dreams.
Is this scene significant? Definitely.
Is it real? Not everything.
But is it totally false? No. This scene is important because it represented something that really happened.

tykjen wrote:
dustbust5 wrote: Later when Cobb breaks a flute everyone stares at him as if he's become the subject suddenly and thus the projections are suddenly alert, then his children run by in response to this switch, because the situation changes.
Cobb was sharing the dream, and the projections would not seek out the subject. The subject is the one populating the Dreamshare levels.
dustbust5 wrote: Cobb is genuinely lost because when you are lost in limbo you lose sight of reality, his totem was Mal and she came with so that's all he needed. Thus Mal's top was key for them to actually get home in concept, but Mal f***ked it up by manipulating it, and Cobb made it no better. Cuz now Mal believes top spinning should be her reality totem. but she jumps off and ends up in limbo where we don't see her real self until muchhhh later again. She was right that they weren't home but because she has no clue anymore where home is, she loses faith in reality's existence. She latches on to the riddle and decides that she can just stay in limbo as long as she gets Cobb to join, because that's what the riddle says.
I don't understand this part...killing oneself would only get to the reality plane unless on a extremely strong narcotic. So I don't think there's any possibility that Mal's alive.

dustbust5 wrote: It's a story about models of reality and in their case corrupted models of reality, manipulated by others at a deep subconscious level or just corrupted by the resulting dysfunction, and how difficult it was to get everyone home. The only answer, because the top is so corrupted was a leap of faith, and there in lies the film's wisdom. Because our models of religion have been manipulated in ways and corrupted (religion, politics ect) the only way to happiness and reality is to take a leap of faith.
It's not how I interpret Mal though.
At the end, she's just a very special projection. Special, but still a projection.
How she talked and acted, what she stand for... it's all Cobb's subconscious blaming himself.

dustbust5 wrote: You really think 5 or so bizzarely impossible moments were just mistakes? There is more going on in this movie that most people are willing to understand, and they respond to insight about how truly complicated it is (it's built to be soo complicated that we can never fuly know, just like life) with saying you're reaching or over reading into it. This film has an ambigious ending, it's created for analysis and debate, reading into it is part of the experience.
I can't find the impossible moments you mentioned.
Won't say you over reading anything, but maybe some misinterpretation? Mal being alive is contradicting many other things in the film; believing Mal being alive may ended up bending the film's fundamental logic. (But who am I to say? An idea is a truly resilient parasite :thumbup: .)

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Despite the increasingly undermining responses, you sir are spot on. It's a dream, the situation simply doesn't exist, starting with hotels that allow easy suicide of falling, exactly parallel rooms in exactly parallel buildings, and the rooms each and every attribute being the same, every last piece of furniture, the flower paining by the door, the sign hanging on the door. I'm sorry but people thinking parallel rooms having absolutely exact same everything including minute details is a coincidence or oversight is just moronic, in a film this meticulous they would not do such an obvious choice of a production design out of laziness.

Except that same room is trashed on Cobb's side, among other things. You're telling me she went over there to trash the place, leave the top as a cryptic message that, if anything, miscommunicates because she leaves it down for reality and the very act of leaving it for him would mean that it's his to tell reality with now, a bizarre gesture for someone who is about to try and convicnce someone that they have no ability to tell reality and need to take a leap of faith no matter what anything says. And again, it's down, knowing what it means, she'd be going out her way to tell Cob the opposite thing that she wants him to believe.

For the record, after the suicide, she's now labeled as someone who was sick, even if the doctors previously didn't believe Cobb about her madness, the suicide would confirm him and certainly put a huge grain of salt on her claims of what's going on. and a suicide can be told apart from a murder. It's just like the inability to go home that one phone call fixes, none of it's true, Cobb can go home he just believes he can't.

The top appears in response to him stepping on the flute, an action that happens 3 times, once as a recreation of this scene, once here, and once in the hotel lobby. Each time it creates a break in Cobb's perception and ability to tell what's going on. Here he gets it as he's going to lose Mal as his totem, he gets Mal's totem magically seemingly Because as he steps into Mal's death scene, she will no longer represent reality for him but cuz Cobb knows about his own Inception and that it corrupted Mal's undetstanding, her believing it was spinning (them dreaming) means to Cob it's dropped. The loss of Mal because of different readings of reality immediately makes Mal's totem Cobb's because he believes she's lost and so reality can be told by the top being opposite of Mal's perception. That's the meaning of this moment. Later when Cobb breaks a flute everyone stairs at him as if he's become the subject suddenly and thus the projections are suddenly alert, then his children run by in response to this switch, because the situation changes. He loses his sense from this moment on and, later, the window whites out as if it was in reference to the hotel. the other side of the hotel no longer exists because after Cobb's perception brake, his reality is now one with Mal's.

And voila, as a result, mal is physically manifested in the next scene and they interact from here on out. Remember the line "As we go deeper into Fischer, we're going into you too" This is a double Inception, the other on Cobb to get Cobb home.

You were correct, and it's a fundamental concept to understanding the dysfunction going on. Cobb is genuinely lost because when you are lost in limbo you lose sight of reality, his totem was Mal and she came with so that's all he needed. Thus Mal's top was key for them to actually get home in concept, but Mal fucked it up by manipulating it, and Cobb made it no better. Cuz now Mal believes topp spinning should be her reality totem. but she jumps off and ends up in limbo where we don't see her real self until muchhhh later again. She was right that they weren't home buy because she has no clue anymore where home is, she loses faith in reality's existence. She latches on to the riddle and decides that she can just stay in limbo as long as she gets Cobb to join, because that's what the riddle says.

It's a story about models of reality and in their case corrupted models of reality, manipulated by others at a deep subconscious level or just corrupted by the resulting dysfunction, and how difficult it was to get everyone home. The only answer, because the top is so corrupted was a leap of faith, and there in lies the film's wisdom. Because our models of religion have been manipulated in ways and corrupted (religion, politics ect) the only way to happiness and reality is to take a leap of faith.

You're view was an astute and is the beginning of a long list of clues to how dysfunctional this dream world is. The clues take place a many in the percieved reality (hotel ledger, eames conterfeiting chips magically once he sees Cobb, the moment in the mirror in Mombasa, the consistency of the image of his kids, the surrealness of his charges and how easily they were dropped, these moments can continue to be considered jsut moemnts that don't make sense all people want but this director is meticulously attention oriented, you really think 5 or so bizzarely impossible moments we're just mistakes? There is more going on in this movie that most people are willing to understand, and they respond to insight about how truly complicated it is (it's built to be soo complicated that we can never fuly know, just like life) with saying you're reaching or over reading into it. This film has an ambigious ending, it's created for analysis and debate, reading into it is part of the experience.

God catch on the ledge, and sorrry if it was confusing i kept referring to doubters as you, that's just the tone that was fluid to write in. I'm supporting ur point, not rejecting it.
I think you are both missing the main point.
Think as a writer/director......How can you make the real world more dreamy and the dream world more real? Mix it up.

The scene with Mal on the ledge just has more dream components added.
This is just like the walls in the Mombasa maze narrowing.

By the way, Eames does not magically conjure up counterfeit chips, he is using them when Cobb walks in, then he cashes them in. Only Cobb notices that they are counterfeit. Cobb's charges were not dropped easily. Only one of the most powerful men in the world could do that. (Of course, if Saito could do it, then Fischer could, since he controls more of the world's energy supply.)
If you believe too much of the dreams, then Dom and Mal both committed suicide and this whole world we see is Dom's Limbo. He was just a stupid old guy who laid in front of an oncoming train. Oh wait, that was the film...
Triangle.

Posts: 179
Joined: January 2011
author wrote:
Despite the increasingly undermining responses, you sir are spot on. It's a dream, the situation simply doesn't exist, starting with hotels that allow easy suicide of falling, exactly parallel rooms in exactly parallel buildings, and the rooms each and every attribute being the same, every last piece of furniture, the flower paining by the door, the sign hanging on the door. I'm sorry but people thinking parallel rooms having absolutely exact same everything including minute details is a coincidence or oversight is just moronic, in a film this meticulous they would not do such an obvious choice of a production design out of laziness.

Except that same room is trashed on Cobb's side, among other things. You're telling me she went over there to trash the place, leave the top as a cryptic message that, if anything, miscommunicates because she leaves it down for reality and the very act of leaving it for him would mean that it's his to tell reality with now, a bizarre gesture for someone who is about to try and convicnce someone that they have no ability to tell reality and need to take a leap of faith no matter what anything says. And again, it's down, knowing what it means, she'd be going out her way to tell Cob the opposite thing that she wants him to believe.

For the record, after the suicide, she's now labeled as someone who was sick, even if the doctors previously didn't believe Cobb about her madness, the suicide would confirm him and certainly put a huge grain of salt on her claims of what's going on. and a suicide can be told apart from a murder. It's just like the inability to go home that one phone call fixes, none of it's true, Cobb can go home he just believes he can't.

The top appears in response to him stepping on the flute, an action that happens 3 times, once as a recreation of this scene, once here, and once in the hotel lobby. Each time it creates a break in Cobb's perception and ability to tell what's going on. Here he gets it as he's going to lose Mal as his totem, he gets Mal's totem magically seemingly Because as he steps into Mal's death scene, she will no longer represent reality for him but cuz Cobb knows about his own Inception and that it corrupted Mal's undetstanding, her believing it was spinning (them dreaming) means to Cob it's dropped. The loss of Mal because of different readings of reality immediately makes Mal's totem Cobb's because he believes she's lost and so reality can be told by the top being opposite of Mal's perception. That's the meaning of this moment. Later when Cobb breaks a flute everyone stairs at him as if he's become the subject suddenly and thus the projections are suddenly alert, then his children run by in response to this switch, because the situation changes. He loses his sense from this moment on and, later, the window whites out as if it was in reference to the hotel. the other side of the hotel no longer exists because after Cobb's perception brake, his reality is now one with Mal's.

And voila, as a result, mal is physically manifested in the next scene and they interact from here on out. Remember the line "As we go deeper into Fischer, we're going into you too" This is a double Inception, the other on Cobb to get Cobb home.

You were correct, and it's a fundamental concept to understanding the dysfunction going on. Cobb is genuinely lost because when you are lost in limbo you lose sight of reality, his totem was Mal and she came with so that's all he needed. Thus Mal's top was key for them to actually get home in concept, but Mal fucked it up by manipulating it, and Cobb made it no better. Cuz now Mal believes topp spinning should be her reality totem. but she jumps off and ends up in limbo where we don't see her real self until muchhhh later again. She was right that they weren't home buy because she has no clue anymore where home is, she loses faith in reality's existence. She latches on to the riddle and decides that she can just stay in limbo as long as she gets Cobb to join, because that's what the riddle says.

It's a story about models of reality and in their case corrupted models of reality, manipulated by others at a deep subconscious level or just corrupted by the resulting dysfunction, and how difficult it was to get everyone home. The only answer, because the top is so corrupted was a leap of faith, and there in lies the film's wisdom. Because our models of religion have been manipulated in ways and corrupted (religion, politics ect) the only way to happiness and reality is to take a leap of faith.

You're view was an astute and is the beginning of a long list of clues to how dysfunctional this dream world is. The clues take place a many in the percieved reality (hotel ledger, eames conterfeiting chips magically once he sees Cobb, the moment in the mirror in Mombasa, the consistency of the image of his kids, the surrealness of his charges and how easily they were dropped, these moments can continue to be considered jsut moemnts that don't make sense all people want but this director is meticulously attention oriented, you really think 5 or so bizzarely impossible moments we're just mistakes? There is more going on in this movie that most people are willing to understand, and they respond to insight about how truly complicated it is (it's built to be soo complicated that we can never fuly know, just like life) with saying you're reaching or over reading into it. This film has an ambigious ending, it's created for analysis and debate, reading into it is part of the experience.

God catch on the ledge, and sorrry if it was confusing i kept referring to doubters as you, that's just the tone that was fluid to write in. I'm supporting ur point, not rejecting it.
I think you are both missing the main point.
Think as a writer/director......How can you make the real world more dreamy and the dream world more real? Mix it up.

The scene with Mal on the ledge just has more dream components added.
This is just like the walls in the Mombasa maze narrowing.

By the way, Eames does not magically conjure up counterfeit chips, he is using them when Cobb walks in, then he cashes them in. Only Cobb notices that they are counterfeit. Cobb's charges were not dropped easily. Only one of the most powerful men in the world could do that. (Of course, if Saito could do it, then Fischer could, since he controls more of the world's energy supply.)
If you believe too much of the dreams, then Dom and Mal both committed suicide and this whole world we see is Dom's Limbo. He was just a stupid old guy who laid in front of an oncoming train. Oh wait, that was the film...
Triangle.
Well because they never were back in reality, they never committed suicide, just went to limbo. Until Cobb or they let go of each other as a totem/mode of reality (the riddle) they're both lost in the dream world. Hence, everything being about taking a leap of faith, one that intuitively allows him to walk away from their shared totem.

In terms of the ledge and the walls narrowing, it's the beauty of the film, it can be corrupted memory/perception of reality or a straight representation of it all being a dream, no matter how much research there is no way to ever know because of Cobb's un-trustworthiness. Like Cobb we can never know, we just have to take a leap of faith and go with it. No matter what theory anyone has of what truly happened, that right there is the beauty of the film. That's all that matters, and it's the only "right" answer/.

For the record, the chips thing is ambigous, of course, also. But im my opinion, Eames seems to believe he's in genuine perril, down and out (last chips) until Cobb shows up, he said you can't make them breed (Magically have things be better) but Eames seems to actually be filled with confidence now by Cobb's very presence, he proceeds to create more chips that moment. Cobb makes comments about spelling and handwriting clearly alluding to Eame's skill set as a thief/extractor, which would all the more indicate the chips are one with the job, things Eames creates counterfeits of to his/their own gain in the dream world. Just my opinion, far from fact.

Also as a gambler, it makes no sense to play only two chips and then cash in counterfeit chips, the very idea would be to play the counterfeits so win lose or draw you can cash in with real chips from the game. So Eames actions don't speak to reality but to awareness that it's a dream and he can get away with what he wants now that he's aware. This of course is ridiculously in depth thought process wise, but a fun and relevant point nonetheless.

Posts: 3
Joined: September 2011
steveportee wrote:
September 23rd, 2011, 5:03 pm
iloveheat wrote:I just want to run an idea by you guys....
the scene of the wife's suicide was a dream. Just pay attention at the fact that Cobb is looking at his wife sitting on the window sill as though he was on the outside of the building, although he was and should have been inside of the same building too; and as a matter of fact he was inside the very same room where she apparently was, since they were to meet there. In fact, if you have the chance to watch that scene again, you will notice that the furniture in her room is the same, same white sofa, same chandelier: of course she is jumping from that room's window, where else from? Therefore how is that he is looking at her as though she was on a different building on the other side of a narrow street?
Now, I know that maybe this is a stretch...but how would you explain that scene otherwise?
So, if that was a dream, the wife's suicide, then ...
What do you think about this? Please let me know...
She's in a different room than him in the same building.
Right. If she was in a different room, framing Cobb for her murder would be a bit more difficult to prove, don't you think so? And why after all would she be in a different room? If the police found that she booked and stayed in another room, maybe Cobb would be believed when he told the police he didn't kill her.

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