Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

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Vader182 wrote:TFA has a higher rating (percent and avg rating) on Rotten Tomatoes, was way, way higher on year end top-ten lists at 15 vs 24 (this is a better year for movies but that doesn't really explain TLJ being 9 full places lower)

-Vader
I honestly think that's a flawed argument for two reasons.

One, you can't really compare two films' rankings from two different years, that way. Guardians Vol 1 was #8 in 2014 for example or Where the Wild Things Are is #14 on 2009 (I can go on), but it's clearly debatable whether they have been better reviewed than The Last Jedi.

Secondly, there are so many more top ten lists that have yet to come out, plenty more than what we already have, and considering the fact that a good percent of the current ones, have been created by critics, who hadn't seen Jedi, I'd say chances are that its ranking might improve before we reach the finish line on that. It also might not, or it might go lower, but the point is, we'll have to reserve judgment for now.

What we do know is that Jedi has 86/100 on metacritic compared to 81/100 for Awakens. And although the number of perfect scores for the two are very much the same, Jedi has way more 9/10 ratings than Awakens.

The tomatometers of the two titles are so close, that it's really pointless to bring that up. RT is generally not suitable for such comparisons, because there are plenty of reviews in there without any rating, and therefore so many reviews that regard a certain film as "a masterpiece" would hold the same value as "solid but forgettable" remarks.£

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I dunno, I'm definitely including and admitting all of the above that you said.

2017 is a more crowded year than 2015 to be sure, but is it 9 movies different crowded? Perhaps, perhaps not. The list I'm looking at for top tens has 260 lists for 2017 so far criticstop10.com. That's a pretty reliable sample size, and top tens got published around the same time for both years. I like this site since it's far more democratized than MetaCritic.

Metacritic comparison is valid and correct, but it's one of a few sources. That's what I mean by absence of consensus. At worst, TFA and TLJ each have metrics that point they each have similar acclaim, with the top tens indicating more critical passion for TFA whereas TLJ is more respected and admired than loved. I think a similar thing is going on with Dunkirk, for example.


-Vader

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Cilogy wrote:
Bacon wrote:The amount of people actively choosing to ignore the structural and character-arc flaws that TLJ has is startling to me. Especially considering half of that selection of people were jumping at TFA's throat for its flaws.
For me it's a strikingly similar situation to TDKR, where the flaws are absolutely relevant and ought to deconstructed and criticized (and in some ways TLJ has structural flaws that rival the prequels :o ), but they're ultimately overshadowed by the bigger picture.
I honestly feel very similarly to this except that the flaws in TDKR do not annoy me or affect the film's poignancy nearly as much as the issues in TLJ.

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The more time goes by the more I think TDKR is one of the best superhero films ever made, which I have seen so many times now that I lost count, whereas I cannot see myself ever rewatching TLJ.

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Batfan175 wrote:The more time goes by the more I think TDKR is one of the best superhero films ever made, which I have seen so many times now that I lost count, whereas I cannot see myself ever rewatching TLJ.
I see you posting that same old post in here despite your feelings.

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a predictable adorable mostly well-meant chuckle machine, prefer it to rlm

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on the contrary, i think TFA has grown more on me over time. as much as people say JJ is a copycat, there's no denying he is incredibly skilled at the craft, there's so much flair on show in that film. everyone's character development shines there too.

theres at least 5 jawdropping sequences in it i can count from the top of my head
Last edited by elemunt on December 28th, 2017, 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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m4st4 wrote:
Batfan175 wrote:The more time goes by the more I think TDKR is one of the best superhero films ever made, which I have seen so many times now that I lost count, whereas I cannot see myself ever rewatching TLJ.
I see you posting that same old post in here despite your feelings.
I know my feelings about both these films. Whatever flaws the script had, TDKR had a lot of great actors (especially Hardy, Hathaway, Caine and Bale), great cinematography and memorable thematic points and a great musical score. Most important of all, it dared ask the question 'how dare a wealthy person like Bruce Wayne be Batman when he had so many other ways and opportunities to improve the lives of others that did not involve him putting on that silly mask?' That's not traditionally statements that superhero films tend to make because they tend to reaffirm the idea that becoming the superhero is the right choice and that the person behind the mask is often less interesting than the masked persona. Nor do they generally include concepts such as economic inequality and demagoguery in their stories. TDKR did address all these points (at times clumsily) but I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than TLJ. I find myself coming back to the film more often the more fluffy and mediocre Disney/MCU stuff gets released.

TLJ just says 'oh you were thinking we were going to do A? Well, we're going to do B at the last second (which resembles A in amost every way but with a slight twist)'. That is not exploring new themes or breaking new ground at all, hence far less interesting. People oversold the boldness of the film because every Star Wars movie has to be exceptional and groundbreaking and the Disney ones just aren't. The hype surrounding Star Wars in general is obnoxious and it is its worst enemy because it raises people's expectations so much that the final film can only disappoint. If we were willing to say that Star Wars is not defying expectations but rather unable to meet them by its very nature and the nature of its fanbase that clings to the old themes, characters and concepts like they were sacred, then we might be able to do something truly creative with Star Wars. As it is, it's just visually bland and thematically rehashed stuff we've seen before. That does not mean it's awful, it just means it's thoroughly mediocre and overlong and meandering and full of unnecessary side-quests and underdeveloped characters made interesting mostly by good actors and actresses.

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Batfan175 wrote:
m4st4 wrote:
Batfan175 wrote:The more time goes by the more I think TDKR is one of the best superhero films ever made, which I have seen so many times now that I lost count, whereas I cannot see myself ever rewatching TLJ.
I see you posting that same old post in here despite your feelings.
I know my feelings about both these films. Whatever flaws the script had, TDKR had a lot of great actors (especially Hardy, Hathaway, Caine and Bale), great cinematography and memorable thematic points and a great musical score. Most important of all, it dared ask the question 'how dare a wealthy person like Bruce Wayne be Batman when he had so many other ways and opportunities to improve the lives of others that did not involve him putting on that silly mask?' That's not traditionally statements that superhero films tend to make because they tend to reaffirm the idea that becoming the superhero is the right choice and that the person behind the mask is often less interesting than the masked persona. Nor do they generally include concepts such as economic inequality and demagoguery in their stories. TDKR did address all these points (at times clumsily) but I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than TLJ. I find myself coming back to the film more often the more fluffy and mediocre Disney/MCU stuff gets released.

TLJ just says 'oh you were thinking we were going to do A? Well, we're going to do B at the last second (which resembles A in amost every way but with a slight twist)'. That is not exploring new themes or breaking new ground at all, hence far less interesting. People oversold the boldness of the film because every Star Wars movie has to be exceptional and groundbreaking and the Disney ones just aren't. The hype surrounding Star Wars in general is obnoxious and it is its worst enemy because it raises people's expectations so much that the final film can only disappoint. If we were willing to say that Star Wars is not defying expectations but rather unable to meet them by its very nature and the nature of its fanbase that clings to the old themes, characters and concepts like they were sacred, then we might be able to do something truly creative with Star Wars. As it is, it's just visually bland and thematically rehashed stuff we've seen before. That does not mean it's awful, it just means it's thoroughly mediocre and overlong and meandering and full of unnecessary side-quests and underdeveloped characters made interesting mostly by good actors and actresses.
Don’t care, why are you posting superlong comments that are completely missing the mark.

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I for one would like to hear Batfans thoughts on this film.

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