Lack of Faith leads to Existential Nihilism

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Viral114 wrote:I am not addressing atheists here (per say).. i am addressing people who REQUIRE proof to believe in things. (yes.. this includes people who stringently believe only in stuff that is within the reach of science.. and hence sensation)

now i am sure many of you are veterans to the existential nihilist argument..
So here is how it goes:

existential nihilism (EN) is the belief that there is no OBJECTIVE purpose to life.. that there is only subjectivity and no general,common or universal rule applies to anyone.. EN tells us that we are insignificant, trivial, and selfish organisms.. all we can do is create our own delusional purpose to survive and not kill ourselves (basically a life dedicated to self preservation).

astrophysics, astronomy, and biology are general fields that would agree with the part that says that we are insignificant..
SURE we are organized matter.. able to sense matter around us.. experience... live...

but what the F#$% is all that worth anyway? the universe is ultimately moving towards increasing entropy and chaos
and if anyone were to take a wild guess they would understand that life and organization are BOTH transient..

so here comes the challenging part for people who don't have faith:

why do you believe in morals?
if you fancy yourself an EN then you'd probably say that morals are subjective and delusional self defense constructs meant to give a personal purpose..
OR
you might be defiant and point to survival.. you might say: "the evolutionary significance of objective morals is what has led to survival...and these morals in turn are rooted in our design.. for example guilt.. shame... fear... hence i am compelled to have morals.."

of course i would agree with the latter part of the statement.. but i wouldn't agree that morals are rooted in our design.. morals
DO change with time and circumstance.. and yes.. emotions such as fear that have ultimately led to survival don't change.

Next question is harder...
WHY has fear led to survival? and what is fear?
you can't point to transcription of certain genes or.. specific neuronal circuitry in your brain.. that is not how you define fear.. fear is there because of CONSEQUENCE.. when a zebra detects movement of a foraging lion it reflexively associates an aversive consequence with inaction.. WHY is that?
because without fear you don't survive..

now think about your daily life.. why do you take showers, brush your teeth, wash your clothes..
why do you do your job? why do you study? why do you get married? why do you reproduce? and why do you DO anything?

see it is unhealthy (bad for survival) to:
have bad hygiene..to be a slob.. to be forever single.. to have no offspring..
appropriately there are social stigmas in place JUST so you may be reminded that there is a consequence..

so do you see how life presupposes consequence??
i am sure you can give me numerous examples where fear does not prevail.. and courage has led to survival.. but then
i would argue that even courage requires consequence.. both fight AND flight are there to preserve the self and avoid death..

see people who don't have faith blindly assert that the universe will end in nothingness.. or that the universe ends as soon as they loose consciousness..

OR that they await some sort of evidence that might make them believe in a universal purpose..

but i am just going to tell them this:
your body functions to survive.. all the machinery within your cells is designed around consequence.. a simple upset in the balance of one hormone can cause a chain reaction leading further homeostatic disruption..
simple inaction can cause you to compromise your health.. become diabetic.. develop cancer (cessation requires an active effort).. persistent absence from your job.. or important family gatherings can cause an irreversible consequence.. in which you become a liability..

so DON'T await proof.. there is none..
by believing that the universe and existence is without consequence we contradict life within ourselves..
Life REQUIRES faith in a consequence.. and faith in a purpose..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... 4GAQtGtd_0
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solo2001 wrote:Image
Best reaction. Ever :clap: . I just spilt my drink in the middle of uni :lol: :lol:

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Skyab23 wrote:People do things that make them feel good and avoid things that make them feel bad (can't remember the technical term for this but it's from an earlier political scientist).
sounds similar to hedonism
Skyab23 wrote:You stated that those who do not have faith, do not have it because they need proof of some sort, and this is true to a large extent. They are natural skeptics, as am I. But I disagree when you state that, you must have faith because many things will not show itself, and you provided examples. However, if I do not go to work, then the proof will be that I'm fired and unable to pay my bills. This is a negative consequence and thus, I am more likely to not do it.
you are not going deep enough :leoface:
if you loose your job.. can't pay your bills and are down graded to a lower level of existence..
how is that ANY different than say being a billionaire and living in a penthouse?

according to ALL proof provided, you will loose all your sensations, all your memories.. all your tangible and material goods
when you die.. (and all the pleasure that you gain in this world would have been for nothing)

then why do good? why not just please yourself all the time?
again you might bring in the tedious trial and error argument in which persistent pleasure does not lead to a community's overall survival.. but please ask yourself the question.. WHY is that?
see a lot of people believe that there is no TRULY selfless deed..

that sheer dopamine release in our synapses qualifies as us "selfishly pleasing ourselves"
this is a perverted view of the truth (and i wouldn't expect ANY fan of Nolan films to believe in it)..
nobody actually looks at the context of selfless deeds.. the dopamine release actually reinforces synapses that trigger "self-destructive" actions..
sending food to Africa is relatively "self destructive".. sending aid to places hit by natural disasters
is relatively "self destructive" (especially if you have sky rocketing national debt).. giving to the poor is relatively
"self destructive".. jumping on a gernade so your friends can survive is literally self destructive..
and every time you perform that action the probability of you helping again (if you survive) can ONLY go up.. even with finite
financial means your would at least consider giving charity having helped out before.

empathy allows us to transcend self.. what triggers empathy is the natural wiring in our brain that reinforces mutualism..
some people can easily inhibit this empathy and live a life of indifference.. pleasing the self..
such a life is possible.. ESPECIALLY in America.. but is such a life worth living? seeking pleasure at every door..
Skyab23 wrote: however having faith that I'm going to go to a never never land after I die here on Earth and live among every one through their spirits is purely speculation with no tangible evidence whatsoever.
i think believing that the universe will end as soon as you die is much worse..
because a selfish existence isn't worth it
have you asked yourself why selfishness never survives on its own (imagine a virus)?

the answer is the reason why
we die as we age.. why stars burn out.. why empires spread far and wide only to fall..
why galaxies get swallowed by supermassive black holes.. why NOTHING in this finite existence is absolute..
that answer to that question is the very reason why the universe approaches chaos..

maybe you don't see the patterns.. maybe you will call me crazy.. but i am ok.. my excuse is weed ;)

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Cilogy wrote:I would argue that purpose is a man-made thing. It's a subjective idea that we somehow matter in the universe, because that assumes that universe somehow reasons between what is good and bad. To me, the universe is just there, it's chaos and there's no way to truly define chaos.
by all means consider chaos.. but also consider organization..
all organization moves towards chaos.. but for the small duration that organization is present we must treasure it.

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you ask why do good and not just please yourself all the time...that's what it's all about. If I give money to a private organization, say Red Cross, I do it because helping other people makes me feel good. Everything you do is for your own benefit. You eat because you need it to survive yes, but you eat what you want because it's good to you. You watch Nolan films because you enjoy it. You wave at a stranger because it makes you feel good that you're being courteous. Everything you do is out of self-interest, yet that self-interest can also benefit others, such as smiling at someone, making their day better, while also making you feel good as well. What do you do that doesn't pleasure you either physically or mentally? Nearly nothing. I do school work, not for necessary pleasure, but for the pleasure I know I'll have in the future because of that hard work.

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The thread title slmost makes nihilism sound bad.
Do you... like pineapple?

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Viral114 wrote:I am not addressing atheists here (per say).. i am addressing people who REQUIRE proof to believe in things. (yes.. this includes people who stringently believe only in stuff that is within the reach of science.. and hence sensation)

now i am sure many of you are veterans to the existential nihilist argument..
So here is how it goes:

existential nihilism (EN) is the belief that there is no OBJECTIVE purpose to life.. that there is only subjectivity and no general,common or universal rule applies to anyone.. EN tells us that we are insignificant, trivial, and selfish organisms.. all we can do is create our own delusional purpose to survive and not kill ourselves (basically a life dedicated to self preservation).

astrophysics, astronomy, and biology are general fields that would agree with the part that says that we are insignificant..
SURE we are organized matter.. able to sense matter around us.. experience... live...

but what the F#$% is all that worth anyway? the universe is ultimately moving towards increasing entropy and chaos
and if anyone were to take a wild guess they would understand that life and organization are BOTH transient..

so here comes the challenging part for people who don't have faith:

why do you believe in morals?
if you fancy yourself an EN then you'd probably say that morals are subjective and delusional self defense constructs meant to give a personal purpose..
OR
you might be defiant and point to survival.. you might say: "the evolutionary significance of objective morals is what has led to survival...and these morals in turn are rooted in our design.. for example guilt.. shame... fear... hence i am compelled to have morals.."

of course i would agree with the latter part of the statement.. but i wouldn't agree that morals are rooted in our design.. morals
DO change with time and circumstance.. and yes.. emotions such as fear that have ultimately led to survival don't change.

Next question is harder...
WHY has fear led to survival? and what is fear?
you can't point to transcription of certain genes or.. specific neuronal circuitry in your brain.. that is not how you define fear.. fear is there because of CONSEQUENCE.. when a zebra detects movement of a foraging lion it reflexively associates an aversive consequence with inaction.. WHY is that?
because without fear you don't survive..

now think about your daily life.. why do you take showers, brush your teeth, wash your clothes..
why do you do your job? why do you study? why do you get married? why do you reproduce? and why do you DO anything?

see it is unhealthy (bad for survival) to:
have bad hygiene..to be a slob.. to be forever single.. to have no offspring..
appropriately there are social stigmas in place JUST so you may be reminded that there is a consequence..

so do you see how life presupposes consequence??
i am sure you can give me numerous examples where fear does not prevail.. and courage has led to survival.. but then
i would argue that even courage requires consequence.. both fight AND flight are there to preserve the self and avoid death..

see people who don't have faith blindly assert that the universe will end in nothingness.. or that the universe ends as soon as they loose consciousness..

OR that they await some sort of evidence that might make them believe in a universal purpose..

but i am just going to tell them this:
your body functions to survive.. all the machinery within your cells is designed around consequence.. a simple upset in the balance of one hormone can cause a chain reaction leading further homeostatic disruption..
simple inaction can cause you to compromise your health.. become diabetic.. develop cancer (cessation requires an active effort).. persistent absence from your job.. or important family gatherings can cause an irreversible consequence.. in which you become a liability..

so DON'T await proof.. there is none..
by believing that the universe and existence is without consequence we contradict life within ourselves..
Life REQUIRES faith in a consequence.. and faith in a purpose..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... 4GAQtGtd_0
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I still don't believe anybody actually read the OP.

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chee wrote:I still don't believe anybody actually read the OP.
I read most of it.
If she plays cranium she gives good brainium.

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