I have no issue with people expressing their views on this subject matter. But I can't come here and say, that I condemn all LGBTQ people to hell or I find them disgusting and gross, and that's my opinion. I don't get to have such an opinion, when I have no way of verifying why there is something wrong with those people and the way they decided to live their lives.

Someone here even compared the likes of me with pedophile sympathisers. That's outrageous. How can you be so blind and narrow minded not to recognise the clear difference between two mature human beings who love each other and a fucking douchebag who molests little children.

I don't mind people throwing insults at me and calling my views perverted. I've endured far worse than that for saying and doing the right thing. All I'm asking from you, is to use your minds and think after that. Don't just accept whatever society dictates to you and don't proceed to judge people based on the principles set in the times of bigotry and intolerance.£

'Two mature people who love each other (no less!)' sounds so romantic and normal... until you introuduce the incest trope. Yet again I fail to see how you don't recognize the difference. It's literally like saying people who think Earth is flat shouldn't be condemned because who are we to tell them otherwise? Well, yeah, man. They're free to choose what they believe in and their belief isn't hurting nobody, but Earth ain't flat.

You can prove that the Earth is not flat. So anyone who says otherwise is simply ignorant. Can you prove that there is something immoral about sibling love?£

I can scientifically prove that Earth ain't flat, just as I can scientifically prove incest is genetically wrong, ain't gonna dvelve in morality issues but that's a solid start.

Vader182 wrote: And because our programming as a species has us avoid behaviors that have high likelihood of fucking up procreation due to Darwin and all that, thus we have a huge aversion to incest. It fucks shit up. It's the exact same psychological trigger as to why we hate pedophiles.

There are other reasons incest is like, bad, but this is enough to condemn it for once and for always. If you want to fuck your sister, it's because your evolutionary mechanisms underpinning your behavior has failed you and is broken. Simple as that.


-Vader

Pedophiles have an evolutionary disadvantage because the vast majority of females obviously must have found it disturbing/offensive but they've been far less disadvantaged than those inclined towards incest because

a.) a partner may not know about his/her mate's pedophilia during courtship/mating whereas would be incestuous couples are almost always aware of whether or not they're each others' kin.

b.) a pedophile can rape his partner which has no significant impact on the offspring's chances of survival (other than the fact that theres a smaller chance/degree of paternal investment into the kid but this often happens in consensual mating as well) whereas incestuous offspring have survival deficits regardless of the sexual selection among the parents.

The evolutionary forces acting against incest and pedophilia are very different. Incest has probably been taboo much longer than pedophilia because hybrid vigor (outbreeding) has been selected for while incest attraction has been selected against, but now, and for good reason, pedophilia must be a bigger taboo because human beings have become more rational where things like consent and awareness of acute childhood trauma are considered. Children were seen as just smaller adults up until around a century and a half ago because childhood development wasn't really known/understood.

None of you guys have addressed MV's point on why sterile incest is immoral. The best I could come up with is that this kind of tolerance will probably lead to more incest and therefore more incestuous offspring (which is 100% immoral) from careless fucking simply because theres more incest going on but sterile incest couples can't really be blamed for the carelessness of other incestuous relations. I'd be happy to see an argument that completely knocks this down since I don't want to have to feel the natural/reflexive disgust if I were to see incestuous people irl but I haven't seen any arguments here. This isn't something I've thought about much so I could jump ship pretty easily.

I'm interested in this from a purely futurist/sociocultural angle, which is why I may have said it with unnecessary confidence but I'm just used to assuming that on a long enough timeline any norm can change. Doesn't mean it will just because it can, but I expected us to open a discussion and not whatever this was.

Well that's neat, on a long enough time line maybe we deteriorate into Mad Max world where overlords like Trump can have a harem of underaged girls without braking the law, but people were mostly talking about how it is today and what it means today when all of the elements are taken into consideration, starting from genetics, which is the basis of why we think as we do nowadays.

@ Prince, precisely. People say this has nothing to do with any discussion regarding homosexuality but it has everything to do with it. The fact that we should all accept is that some people feel and think differently from us. They take pleasure in different things than we do. And they shouldn't be required to put a leash on their desires as long as there isn't any negative consequence to them. Plenty of siblings who love each other have to hide their feelings, because of the oppression of the majority. Just like how many homosexuals had to deny it in themselves throughout the years. If there is anything immoral here it's our prejudice and the fact that we repress people who we feel are different from us and we call failures of mankind, and then we force them to blend in with the rest of us, when there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they already are.

dafox wrote:None of you guys have addressed MV's point on why sterile incest is immoral. The best I could come up with is that this kind of tolerance will probably lead to more incest and therefore more incestuous offspring (which is 100% immoral) from careless fucking simply because theres more incest going on but sterile incest couples can't really be blamed for the carelessness of other incestuous relations. I'd be happy to see an argument that completely knocks this down since I don't want to have to feel the natural/reflexive disgust if I were to see incestuous people irl but I haven't seen any arguments here. This isn't something I've thought about much so I could jump ship pretty easily.

It's not like many people can have children and then hide them from the rest of the word, particularly the ones who are disabled. It's much easier to enforce laws against having children than having sex. But this is hardly limited to siblings. Every couple who want to have offsprings should consult with a geneticist and if the odds are too great, they should reconsider. If they still want to live together though, who are we to say otherwise.

The point is you can't call the act of drinking a small amount of alcohol immoral because some people can't handle it and overdrink. I'm not disgusted by people who want to taste a little bit of their champagne with their dinner, because of drunken assholes who beat up their wives and children.£

So ... like ... I'm not saying I'm into this but I've always thought outlawing incest limits freedom to a sort of unreasonable degree.

And if the argument against it is that it produces fucked up offspring, why don't we use the same logic with people who have genetic disorders? People with diseases like AIDS? Dumb people? People we don't like? South Asian people!?



Discuss.

I totally understand the whole "two consensual adults can do what they want" argument. And it totally has its merits.

At the same time though, with family it can be kind of hard to judge if it is consensual or not. Like a lot of incest relationships happen because they are abused and brainwashed into thinking that's okay. These kids grow up with it and they think it's the right thing to do and that's how it's normally supposed to be. So by the time they are adults, they actually want to be in that relationship with their family member.

So it's a matter of how do we judge if they are being consensual or if this is just a cycle of abuse?