prince0gotham wrote:Just to clarify; are you implying that only the west reacts to provocations and the Islamist pigturds don't? I'm sure someone up there at the higher echelons is thankful for your trust.
Are you implying that Isis's actions somehow can be legitimized? What kinda provocations does Isis react to, like really? Right now I think they're aggravated just because you and I are alive.
Talking about blame not legitimization. Are you new to the idea that the west has been, to a great extent, responsible for what has been happening in the middle east since forever? Putting blame on the west isn't supposed to legitimize the pigturds, it's supposed to discourage the west from continuing the cycle. If you look at ISIS as something that spawned out of its own evil and not out of conditions created by both middle eastern peoples AND the horrors inflicted on them by western forces, you're only giving more power to the notion of force being the only solution we need and that in turn will bring even more pigturds along, which then you'll blame only ISIS for and just ISIS. How does that make sense?
To quote yourself: Are you new to the idea that the Ottoman Empire has been responsible for what has been happening in the middle east since forever?
In current postcolonial historical research, the notion that "the West" is to blame for everything that is currently fucked up in the Middle East, Africa etc., is to a large extent considered ahistorical and has been rejected by most scholars. What you are literally saying is that 500 years of history is fucking unimportant, that the political, social, religious, economical and military system imposed on North African and Middle Eastern regions by the Ottoman Empire, an empire that spanned across half the globe and almost engulfed entire Europe is totally inferior to Western imperialism. It's a common misconception in today's political debate and in media, to blame everything wrong in the world on the west because we are afraid to admit that some of these states and regions have terrible cultures, cultures where loyalty is preserved to the family or clan, not to the state. You should read Frederick Cooper.
But I said it's responsible "to a great extent", not that it's responsible in general. When you engage with something you change it, affect it, etc, when you affect it - you're partially responsible. Means that all that engage are responsible. The problem with terrorist attacks is that they usually happen at home which gives the (wrong) idea that everyone from the west is as innocent -and a tragic-idle-bystander-victim. The fact that kids died on the streets of Nice doesn't mean that the people that have been leading wars in the middle east are as innocent. The fact that ISIS is a psychopath breeding-ground doesn't mean that I can or should try to affect what ISIS does. I can't but I can affect what the West does through critique and the encouraging of self-reflection. Both of those are things the "enemy" is bad at, so why become bad at it yourself? We're supposed to fight them by being different and we are not unless we look at how we affect this entire fucked up relationship with the east.
If we help reproduce the conditions which we eventually condemn then what are we really doing?
History is not unimportant, it's just not one-sided, which is what you pretty much imply right now. I never once said anyone's to blame for the whole thing and that's the point. What does it matter if the Ottoman empire did things that every single empire in history has done? What, the west hasn't contributed with its share of empires or what?
The Ottoman example is only relevant if I was saying muslims are saints, which is only something you rely on me saying so that you'd be able to keep pointing fingers at them only.
EDIT: And what kind of an argument is "well, out of all empires they've been the worst (debatable) so we don't need to sweat so much"
This guy's profile alone shows there's much more than just Islam to why these people do these things. In certain cases it's an enabler, never a catalyst. Especially when it comes to ISIS itself you can't separate the religion from the politics and if you can't then how can anyone be sure it's a the source of problems.
EDIT: Islam is a socially constructed doctrine that dictates its own practice, which in turn becomes socially constructed even further. Knowing this, a solution wouldn't be to fight it but change it from within, like this woman tries to do
prince0gotham wrote:
EDIT: Islam is a socially constructed doctrine that dictates its own practice, which in turn becomes socially constructed even further. Knowing this, a solution wouldn't be to fight it but change it from within, like this woman tries to do
When I was studying a semester in Japan, I was walking somewhere and this one religious Arab dude from my program started tagging along (I won't mention which country but crème de la crème of his nation's academics in civil engineering that he was sent there on a full paid ride to study). He was telling me how beautiful and organized Japan was and how it's people and culture were impressive. Then he proceeded to say "now imagine if they also had Islam…how much better they'd be".....My face turned red and I gave him a nice tongue lashing encouraging him to go live/study in Pakistan instead....So basically I just threw a fit and never talked to him again….I believe it's this kind of outlook on life that has gotten Islam to where it is today. So I completely agree with her argument that it’s not exactly Islam that needs to reform but Muslims do. I honestly believe we are a product of our material forces and conditions. And here’s where I disagree with her, if we wanted to truly understand what is wrong with Muslims we shouldn’t go looking for answers in the ideological content. I mean, if the Quran was a completely pacifist holy text completely filled with flowers and rainbows would there still be Islamic fundamentalism and all the violence associated with it today? I think there would be.
Nevertheless, dialogue like this is encouraging but I feel like it is not my place to engage in such a heavy discussion as I’m not Muslim.
